Buying my first proper system - am I on the right track?

[vsch]

I can't really comment on the speakers. However, FWIW, two thoughts on the AVR/amp and the sub:

The AVR-X3700H seems to be an excellent choice. It allows you to use @OCA ’s phenomenal and free A1 Acoustica room-correction solution, which is much better than Audyssey XT32 and probably on par with Dirac. On my 5.1 setup (KEF HTS-3001, SVS SB-1000 Classic, Denon AVC-X3800H), it sounds sublime and the sub is perfectly integrated. I used a UMIK-1 for the measurements, but if I'm not mistaken, it also works with the Audyssey mic that comes with the AVR. The AVR route also has the advantage that it gives you i) the option to upgrade to multichannel later (I love the immersion provided by the Auro 2d/3d upmixer), ii) you can use multiple subs if ever needed, iii) you get plenty of inputs, iv) it works as a HDMI switch. So, I'd probably go the X3700H/X3800H route instead of buying a streamer amp.

If you have a little more space, I would drop the SVS 3000 Micro and opt for a more powerful sub. I have a SVS SB-1000 Classic in my living room and an Arendal 1961 1S in my desk setup (Genelec 8030C, Arendal 1961 1S, Minidsp Flex). The SB-1000 Classic may still be available for roughly 600 EUR, so you could get a more powerful sub for ~30% less money (you don't need DSP in the sub if you integrate it with the AVR). The Arendal 1961 1S costs about the same as the SVS 3000 Micro but is way more powerful. XZT may also be an option.

Finally, room correction makes a huge difference in an untreated room, and A1 Acoustica is phenomenal, open source, and free.

 

[jinza]

I can't really comment on the speakers. However, FWIW, two thoughts on the AVR/amp and the sub:

The AVR-X3700H seems to be an excellent choice. It allows you to use @OCA ’s phenomenal and free A1 Acoustica room-correction solution, which is much better than Audyssey XT32 and probably on par with Dirac. On my 5.1 setup (KEF HTS-3001, SVS SB-1000 Classic, Denon AVC-X3800H), it sounds sublime and the sub is perfectly integrated. I used a UMIK-1 for the measurements, but if I'm not mistaken, it also works with the Audyssey mic that comes with the AVR. The AVR route also has the advantage that it gives you i) the option to upgrade to multichannel later (I love the immersion provided by the Auro 2d/3d upmixer), ii) you can use multiple subs if ever needed, iii) you get plenty of inputs, iv) it works as a HDMI switch. So, I'd probably go the X3700H/X3800H route instead of buying a streamer amp.

If you have a little more space, I would drop the SVS 3000 Micro and opt for a more powerful sub. I have a SVS SB-1000 Classic in my living room and an Arendal 1961 1S in my desk setup (Genelec 8030C, Arendal 1961 1S, Minidsp Flex). The SB-1000 Classic may still be available for roughly 600 EUR, so you could get a more powerful sub for ~30% less money (you don't need DSP in the sub if you integrate it with the AVR). The Arendal 1961 1S costs about the same as the SVS 3000 Micro but is way more powerful. XZT may also be an option.

Finally, room correction makes a huge difference in an untreated room, and A1 Acoustica is phenomenal, open source, and free.

I hadn’t heard about A1 EVO Acoustica - looks epic! A lot of people giving it praise. This is a pretty solid case for the AV receiver. I can get an X3700H for €550, with a Umik-1 puts it around €650 - not bad for what is not far off Dirac-level room correction.

I’m so glad you brought my attention to the SB version of the SVS 1000 series. I’d written it off as being too large, however, I must have been looking at the ported PB version which is larger. It’ll fit in the left corner, I think.

With a pair of DBR62, I think I’ll have a rocking system well within my budget.

Thanks for chiming in!

 

[BossBunos]

@jinza to put it in perspective at 4 m you need speakers that will do 95~97 dB without trace of compression and THD under control for main bass at least (as you lose 10~12 dB at the distance). As you don't have much space to sacrifice good bookshelf's with hollow stands will go better than full floor stand one's. Linton's for 1K with stands and relatively wide dispersion fit in. You do need more capable DSP thanks to room you will be using it in and Denon/Audyssey fits in and perform quite good. WiiM won't do the job sufficiently enough. If you can't provide at least deacent positioning and basic treatment save your money and forget about it.

I would argue the Wiim is better than the denon in terms of EQ. Afaik the denon only has auto EQ and the Wiim has a full 10 band peq per channel.
However the auto EQ on the Wiim is really bad imo.

 

[Chrispy]

I would argue the Wiim is better than the denon in terms of EQ. Afaik the denon only has auto EQ and the Wiim has a full 10 band peq per channel.
However the auto EQ on the Wiim is really bad imo.

That Denon still has the option of the MultEQ Editor App for more control per channel and custom curves. It does cost $20 more but a no brainer.

 

[BossBunos]

That Denon still has the option of the MultEQ Editor App for more control per channel and custom curves. It does cost $20 more but a no brainer.

Does the app provide 10 bands of peq per channel or is it more a visual EQ?

 

[Chrispy]

Does the app provide 10 bands of peq per channel or is it more a visual EQ?

Enough to draw a decent curve rather than get crazy with 10 band eq. Plus the automated part is pretty good. YMMV. I certainly would prefer the multich capabilities of the avr over the 2ch unit, tho

 

[ZolaIII]

Does the app provide 10 bands of peq per channel or is it more a visual EQ?

In my book 10x PEQ IIR is basic, having a many point FIR is a little bit better then you have agnostic way with unlimited everything and not by a tee spoon like JRiver and finally you have equal loudness compensation which is basic of how we hear. So in my book Audiseey is still relatively advanced for such solutions and most complete from a bunch (FIR + ELC and costume curves with app).

 

[jinza]

Hey all, Jannes revealed to me that there's now a store in Europe that supplies Ascilab (thanks mate!) and I'm now assessing their speakers which seem top-notch, especially for their price. I've also been further reading up on the DBR62 and while it seems like a great speaker, I wonder if I'd be safer to go up a notch in quality (for my own standards and to future-proof). Looking at Ascilab, I'm wondering if the F6Bs model might be suitable and I'd appreciate any thoughts you might care to share.

F6Bs on Ascilab's Website
Amir's Review

My notes:
Mix of music, listening from the couch and also walking around the space, with some TV and the odd critical listening session. All at low to medium levels.
WAF dictates that the speakers shouldn't protrude more than about 50 cm from the back wall and not be too large (no more than about 35 cm high by 20cm wide).
- Thinking the sealed design with higher bass roll-off might work well considering they need to be close to the wall?
The position is restricted to either side of the TV, with the left speaker close to the left sidewall.
- I may be able to hang absorbent panels on the tall white radiators to help with sidewall reflections. Also can drop the blinds.
Space is limited, so bonus points for a setup that saves on floor space. Also have a 1 year old so bonus points for keeping the tweeter out of reach for another year or two.
- Could mount them to the wall using the VESA 100 threads on the rear of the cabinet, high enough so the tweeter is around 116 cm from the ground (just 20cm above couch seated ear height and 10 cm above my kid's vertical reach). I know stands are preferred, but considering the limitation of positioning, could this be a good option?

Couch seated position is about 4.2 m away and I wonder if these would have enough juice, along with a subwoofer, to serve our low to medium listening levels. Any ideas?

I just received a UMIK-1 which I understand also works as a dB meter in REW - is it an idea that I measure the volume of my loudest typical listening from the couch and report it here for a better idea of the actual level?

 

[jinza]

Upon further review of the F6Bs, I question whether the narrow directivity would be suitable for listening while walking around the room...

 

[ZolaIII]

Upon further review of the F6Bs, I question whether the narrow directivity would be suitable for listening while walking around the room...

They aren't really neither narrow or wide dispersion with about ±60°. They play nice regarding refractions and have quite linear top end so would do relatively nice regarding coverage. However they aren't for more than 3 m distances or lower than calibration SPL where they will do fine. As they are closed buffle design they only get to 100 Hz on their own so that's high pass point and without high pass for Linkwitz Riley it's ~65 Hz. Blinds won't help, heavy accustic curtains would. Nothing will help if you can't achieve deacent positioning (not anymore space behind speakers but more space behind listener and it doesn't have to be large gap but it needs to be there).

 

[jinza]

They aren't really neither narrow or wide dispersion with about ±60°. They play nice regarding refractions and have quite linear top end so would do relatively nice regarding coverage. However they aren't for more than 3 m distances or lower than calibration SPL where they will do fine. As they are closed buffle design they only get to 100 Hz on their own so that's high pass point and without high pass for Linkwitz Riley it's ~65 Hz. Blinds won't help, heavy accustic curtains would. Nothing will help if you can't achieve deacent positioning (not anymore space behind speakers but more space behind listener and it doesn't have to be large gap but it needs to be there).

Thanks for your help again.

they aren't for more than 3 m distances or lower than calibration SPL where they will do fine
Is this because they physically aren't big enough to push enough air to keep the frequency response even at that distance?

they only get to 100 Hz on their own so that's high pass point and without high pass for Linkwitz Riley it's ~65 Hz
Can you please break this down for me? I know what a high pass is and just educated myself on Linkwitz Riley but unsure of the exact context to this speaker.

Good tips on positioning, at least it's good to know my biggest limitations. I think for critical listening sessions I'll put a blanket over the glass door, pull the speakers out from the back wall and sit on a dining chair at the point of the equilateral triangle.

Also worth mentioning - I took my first SPL measurement with the UMIK-1 in REW today. Played a loud scene in Max Mad Furiosa and turned it up about as loud as I'd normally listen and the reading peaked at 70 dB from the seated couch position (4.2m away). I guess this confirms my low-to-medium listening levels and that these speakers would be able to produce enough volume for my needs, right?

 

[ZolaIII]

@jinza from measurements (where else...). Take a look at regular frequency reading and where it gets to - 6 (for Linkwitz Riley). It's 6" driver and again take a look at impedance/phase plot. So all comply to physical and size and number do count in. So take a look at THD plot at different SPL. You remember I told you you lose - 6 dB with every distance doubling, actually it's a bit less in room and you will also have gain from close to back wall (3~4 dB). It might even be able to go all the way to 88 dB SPL stereo in such circumstances, it's not that you will listen it so loud. You ain't picking peeks with UMIK-1 and I hope you used cal (calibration) file in setup. When you find time watch some of hosts videos on how to...
It doesn't have to be equal triangle or prison chair it just can't be too close to boundaries like wall behind you. All do yes it's good if you can have good ratio of back to front wall refractions ratio but when you can't minimal amount between is a second best thing you can. Blanket would work but seriously there are very nice looking heavy curtains (400 or more g/m²) instead or when you find time. I see curtains as lesser evel and easier to maintan (wash and perhaps iron) than any other form of treatment.

 

[jinza]

@jinza from measurements (where else...). Take a look at regular frequency reading and where it gets to - 6 (for Linkwitz Riley). It's 6" driver and again take a look at impedance/phase plot. So all comply to physical and size and number do count in. So take a look at THD plot at different SPL. You remember I told you you lose - 6 dB with every distance doubling, actually it's a bit less in room and you will also have gain from close to back wall (3~4 dB). It might even be able to go all the way to 88 dB SPL stereo in such circumstances, it's not that you will listen it so loud. You ain't picking peeks with UMIK-1 and I hope you used cal (calibration) file in setup. When you find time watch some of hosts videos on how to...
It doesn't have to be equal triangle or prison chair it just can't be too close to boundaries like wall behind you. All do yes it's good if you can have good ratio of back to front wall refractions ratio but when you can't minimal amount between is a second best thing you can. Blanket would work but seriously there are very nice looking heavy curtains (400 or more g/m²) instead or when you find time. I see curtains as lesser evel and easier to maintan (wash and perhaps iron) than any other form of treatment.

Thanks for clarifying. So it looks like for my loudest listening levels, distortion should still be low enough to be inaudible.

Regarding the SPL measurement, I did install the calibration before testing. What do you mean about "you ain't picking peaks with UMIK-1"? I thought average peaks would be the desirable measurement of the loudest volume?

 

[ZolaIII]

Thanks for clarifying. So it looks like for my loudest listening levels, distortion should still be low enough to be inaudible.

Regarding the SPL measurement, I did install the calibration before testing. What do you mean about "you ain't picking peaks with UMIK-1"? I thought average peaks would be the desirable measurement of the loudest volume?

Yes, UMIK-1 is not fast enough to register true peeks, you get piks and averaged even on RTA (REW).
Edit: and it doesn't go that way. You take trashed at uper mids 700~1000 Hz as program SPL and count in DR to get to the level where true peeks will be. We assume DR up to 20 dB but it can be up to 24 on THX Channel for example, for comparison very wide symphonic orchestral music will be in range up to 16~17 and most of the music even under 10. If you ask me 12 is perfectly enough (as psy twice of a difference) for most things. So gentle use of compressor - gate limiter in the matter of slight cut in highs and boost in mids in such cinematic materials make a lot of sense.
Other problem is volume normalisation and all do EBU R128 is good enough with - 23 LUFS (dB) threshold limit and allowed ±1 dB difference (for the standard and all together 24) you can't implement it to sources you don't have and unfortunately industry (especially streaming one) broke it again taking threshold down to 19, 18 even 15 with their own explanation that's enough for music we got back to not regulated loudness as they all differ.

 

[Marc v E]

Just a idea, this could work:

(Left and right speakers attached to the opposing walls in light blue, a soundbar acting as center speaker in dark blue on the small table, and in pink the sub placed behind the couch. You could connect the soundbar for movies after the kid(s) have gone to bed. I would personally choose Sonos because it gives you nice looking and sounding speakers with a high Waf and feel that getting more upmarket speakers would require changes to the layout that your wife is clearly not happy with. Anyway food for thought. Take care and let us know what you chose.)

 

[jinza]

Just a idea, this could work:

(Left and right speakers attached to the opposing walls in light blue, a soundbar acting as center speaker in dark blue on the small table, and in pink the sub placed behind the couch. You could connect the soundbar for movies after the kid(s) have gone to bed. I would personally choose Sonos because it gives you nice looking and sounding speakers with a high Waf and feel that getting more upmarket speakers would require changes to the layout that your wife is clearly not happy with. Anyway food for thought. Take care and let us know what you chose.)

View attachment 462717

Food for thought indeed. Alas, I can’t move furniture so the sub couldn’t go behind the couch. Soundbar on the coffee table isn’t a bad idea, though it would be too far right to be aligned with the TV. And the side wall speaker placement is a novel idea I hadn’t considered. I think they’d be placed a bit too wide for a good soundstage though.
I certainly appreciate your creative “out of the box” ideas!

 

[RalphB]

Get some phones and DAC. You won't have to mess with speakers.