Impressions on very efficient single driver

[Theta]

I just tried a very vintage 12 Inch Visaton full range (probably a guitar amp speaker from the 60's), with the addition of a sub woofer without high pass. Good results with some recordings. Has any body tried a similar setup with good results?

 

[ppataki]

Check out some my earlier projects:

Fane 15-300TC 15" full range speaker based project

Let me share another project that I am venturing into :) A few months ago I managed to buy a pair of Fane 15" full range speakers - unfortunately production of these drivers was stopped earlier this year due to low demand; as far as I know I bought the last pair in Europe (if anybody knows...

audiosciencereview.com

DIY Audio Nirvana 12" + Dayton Reference FAST project

I am sharing with you yet another DIY project we have done with my neighbor (who is a carpenter...:)) much earlier this year It is a FAST (Fullrange Assisted Subwoofer Technology) system consisting of 12" Audio Nirvana Classic fullrange speakers and Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 subs I could not find...

audiosciencereview.com

Fane Sovereign 12-250TC project measurements

One of my friends has built a pair of floorstanding loudspeakers using 12" Fane 12-250TC fullrange drivers. I am posting this on his behalf and with his permission. Cabinet is sealed with the below parameters: Made of 19mm baltic birch plywood using internal bracing (unfortunately I do not...

audiosciencereview.com

You will need a lot of DSP though - if you want a nice & flat response

 

[MAB]

I just tried a very vintage 12 Inch Visaton full range (probably a guitar amp speaker from the 60's), with the addition of a sub woofer without high pass. Good results with some recordings. Has any body tried a similar setup with good results?

What do you consider as 'good results'?
Why do you believe it had 'good results' with only some recordings? Did it sound bad with other material?
Why do you think a large full-range might have 'good results' only on some recordings?

 

[GXAlan]

KORG Poetry (Digital Piano/Bluetooth Speaker) Measurements

KORG Poetry Digital Piano/Soundbar The KORG Poetry is a digital piano which has been designed as "The Piano For Lovers of Chopin." It uniquely captures an 1843 Pleyel vintage piano that was Chopin's choice of piano and also provides a modern Fazioli grand piano sample. What's unique is that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And

Canon S-50 Wide Directivity Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Canon S-50 wide directivity ("omni-directional") speaker. It was a venture from their UK division from what I have read (in early 1990s). Phil Ward tells the story well in this article...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And

Bose 901 Series VI Active Equalizer Measurements

Bose 901 Series VI Active Equalizer Measurements The Bose 901 Series V has been measured on the Klippel NFS. In Erin's measurements, he noted that the equalizer added an extreme level of distortion. I recently tried a Series VI in my own home and came around incredibly impressed with the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Are some measurements of full range speakers. One just by me and one on the NFS.

What do you consider as 'good results'?
Why do you believe it had 'good results' with only some recordings? Did it sound bad with other material?
Why do you think a large full-range might have 'good results' only on some recordings?

Expectations probably play a big role in how we experience the sound. Objectively, there is no way you would pick a full range speakers in a head to head against a well designed multi-driver speaker with the same “voicing.” But when you have low expectations, they surprise!

Single driver setups often enable unique form factors and aesthetics. At one extreme of an over engineered single speaker, you have the Meyer Sound MM4XP and at the other end, you have your iPhone speaker. What I would say is that the ideal speaker reproduces 20Hz to 20 kHz because that’s everything humans can hear, but for music, a piano often doesn’t go down that low or that high. Very few pieces utilize the full 88 key range and you often can get by with cutting off an octave on each end. The human voice, only has a specific range, and a single driver speaker can deliver that with spades.

Last, it’s possible that the beaming of the high frequencies can be used in specific rooms and listening positions to generate a favorable listening experience.

 

[MAB]

KORG Poetry (Digital Piano/Bluetooth Speaker) Measurements

KORG Poetry Digital Piano/Soundbar The KORG Poetry is a digital piano which has been designed as "The Piano For Lovers of Chopin." It uniquely captures an 1843 Pleyel vintage piano that was Chopin's choice of piano and also provides a modern Fazioli grand piano sample. What's unique is that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And

Canon S-50 Wide Directivity Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Canon S-50 wide directivity ("omni-directional") speaker. It was a venture from their UK division from what I have read (in early 1990s). Phil Ward tells the story well in this article...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And

Bose 901 Series VI Active Equalizer Measurements

Bose 901 Series VI Active Equalizer Measurements The Bose 901 Series V has been measured on the Klippel NFS. In Erin's measurements, he noted that the equalizer added an extreme level of distortion. I recently tried a Series VI in my own home and came around incredibly impressed with the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 399109

Are some measurements of full range speakers. One just by me and one on the NFS.



Expectations probably play a big role in how we experience the sound. Objectively, there is no way you would pick a full range speakers in a head to head against a well designed multi-driver speaker with the same “voicing.” But when you have low expectations, they surprise!

Single driver setups often enable unique form factors and aesthetics. At one extreme of an over engineered single speaker, you have the Meyer Sound MM4XP and at the other end, you have your iPhone speaker. What I would say is that the ideal speaker reproduces 20Hz to 20 kHz because that’s everything humans can hear, but for music, a piano often doesn’t go down that low or that high. Very few pieces utilize the full 88 key range and you often can get by with cutting off an octave on each end. The human voice, only has a specific range, and a single driver speaker can deliver that with spades.

Last, it’s possible that the beaming of the high frequencies can be used in specific rooms and listening positions to generate a favorable listening experience.

I like Bose 901. Produces odd directivity and in-room response in a strange and enchanting way. It produces a very good result, if you are looking for that sound.
Much different than single full-range guitar speaker.

I also like Meyer Sound. But that is different.

I am interested in what constitutes a 'good result'. And would like to see some measurements since only a few people who use full rangers are willing to help and show an actual result. @ppataki of course has documented some wonderful full-range systems, including what is needed to get a good result. And Bose is the exemplar of what can be done with a different full-range approach, nice that we have measurements of what the actual sound they produce.

Full rangers have two reputations; either magically good, or horrible. The truth is somewhere between these opposites (more or less like all speakers).

 

[mhardy6647]

I just tried a very vintage 12 Inch Visaton full range (probably a guitar amp speaker from the 60's), with the addition of a sub woofer without high pass. Good results with some recordings. Has any body tried a similar setup with good results?

12" is hard - in terms of treble extension and dispersion. Does it have a whizzer or a metal dustcap (i.e., something to help with treble)?
What sort of enclosure -- or open baffle?


Electrovoice "Wolverine" (their entry-level line at the time) LS-12 12" "fullrange" drivers with whizzers. One of these two drivers has been in my family since before I was born -- I quite literally grew up with it (installed in a large-ish vented enclosure my father had built). The other one was picked up off of eBAY because -- well, I am a sucker for almost all things Electrovoice.

FWIW I am more a fan of smaller "full-range" (ahem -- extended range -- let's be honest here) drivers. I have long felt that 8" is a sweet spot in terms of a reasonable performance band.

Full rangers have two reputations; either magically good, or horrible. The truth is somewhere between these opposites (more or less like all speakers).

Well put - honest but also diplomatic (as opposed to dogmatic ).

Currently playing with, and enjoying, these. They aren't great for big music, but the quality of the midrange (e.g., vocals and "acoustic" instruments) even these modest (and rather elderly) Pioneer "biflex" type drivers produce is quite beguiling.



see, e.g.,

Silbatone Box Adventures

jelabs.blogspot.com

 

[Theta]

What do you consider as 'good results'?
Why do you believe it had 'good results' with only some recordings? Did it sound bad with other material?
Why do you think a large full-range might have 'good results' only on some recordings?

Maybe I should have said "fairly good results", I have not discovered a new reference here. I have not measured.
Here is my gross appraisal of the approach to this speaker types.

1. Light cardboard cones are very dynamic
2. No crossover is a good thing
3. Accordion suspensions with very little movement is a good thing.
4. Beaming in the high mid range can easily be tamed by a little equalization.
5. Adding woofers (subs) with no high pass is absolutely necessary.

These are just preliminary observations. Not affirmations.

 

[ppataki]

Full range drivers are definitely divisive
In the last 4-5 years I have had many people visiting my home and listening to my full range system. (I have had more than a dozen different kind of full range speakers from 6 inch to 15 inch, all with heavy DSP of course). Some people fell in love with them after 3 seconds (literally) while others frowned and could not understand how I can love this sound....
It is what it is...

Just to share my very latest learnings in this subject: previously I thought that bigger was better so I moved from 6 inch speakers to 10, 12 and 15 inch ones.
The effortless sound they produce is mesmerizing but you will definitely lose the top end - even when force EQ-d to be flat up to 20kHz. It will measure perfectly (from a frequency response perspective, as you can see in my project threads) but you will miss the details (and I have no idea how to measure treble details)

So I changed my strategy and moved back to smaller speakers, like these and very lately, these.
And I use (properly integrated & here too) subwoofer(s) to cover below 80Hz
This way I get both the top end and the bottom end perfectly while keeping the nature of a full range driver ('live' sound and holographic presentation and unfortunately I have no idea how to measure these)

 

[Selkirks]

I enjoy single driver speakers and use them as mains at least 3 days a week. The objective performance is likely not comparable with a good multi-driver build but I thoroughly enjoy them as hobbyist. EQ helps with some issues.

 

[norman bates]

looks like the w8-2145 there.
I had luck with a notch filter, still not much bass though.

Currently working on an eminence b102 (10" with whizzer) ran wide open, along side a single capped morel cat378 tweeter.....
I had it before but un-optimized...........

Subjectively, they can very very pleasurable within their limits.

 

[MAB]

Maybe I should have said "fairly good results", I have not discovered a new reference here. I have not measured.
Here is my gross appraisal of the approach to this speaker types.

1. Light cardboard cones are very dynamic
2. No crossover is a good thing
3. Accordion suspensions with very little movement is a good thing.
4. Beaming in the high mid range can easily be tamed by a little equalization.
5. Adding woofers (subs) with no high pass is absolutely necessary.

My experience is subs are necessary.
I'm not able to change beaming with EQ. Perhaps mask the beaming effect.
I not clear how no-crossover = good. Maybe good but limited. Bad crossover and/or driver integration = bad for sure.

 

[Theta]

looks like the w8-2145 there.
I had luck with a notch filter, still not much bass though.

Currently working on an eminence b102 (10" with whizzer) ran wide open, along side a single capped morel cat378 tweeter.....
I had it before but un-optimized...........

Subjectively, they can very very pleasurable within their limits.

Is this the Eminence driver used by Zu Audio?

 

[ppataki]

My experience is subs are necessary.
I'm not able to change beaming with EQ. Perhaps mask the beaming effect.
I not clear how no-crossover = good. Maybe good but limited. Bad crossover and/or driver integration = bad for sure.

I totally second that

@Theta try a high-pass on your 12" driver, it will 'open up' the sound. I had the same experience with my 15" Fane drivers. Initially I thought I would not need a sub because the 15" drivers can surely handle bass - which is true - but then when I got a sub and I applied proper integration (with LPF and HPF, delay, etc.) the sound of the Fanes became even more effortless and more 'open' (for the lack of a better word)

Now after ~5 years of experience with all sorts of full range drivers I would definitely recommend using a properly integrated sub, regardless of their size

 

[gaz]

Full range drivers are definitely divisive
In the last 4-5 years I have had many people visiting my home and listening to my full range system. (I have had more than a dozen different kind of full range speakers from 6 inch to 15 inch, all with heavy DSP of course). Some people fell in love with them after 3 seconds (literally) while others frowned and could not understand how I can love this sound....
It is what it is...

Just to share my very latest learnings in this subject: previously I thought that bigger was better so I moved from 6 inch speakers to 10, 12 and 15 inch ones.
The effortless sound they produce is mesmerizing but you will definitely lose the top end - even when force EQ-d to be flat up to 20kHz. It will measure perfectly (from a frequency response perspective, as you can see in my project threads) but you will miss the details (and I have no idea how to measure treble details)

So I changed my strategy and moved back to smaller speakers, like these and very lately, these.
And I use (properly integrated & here too) subwoofer(s) to cover below 80Hz
This way I get both the top end and the bottom end perfectly while keeping the nature of a full range driver ('live' sound and holographic presentation and unfortunately I have no idea how to measure these)

Perhaps the lack of detail in the treble could be measured as a form of distortion.

 

[Theta]

I totally second that

@Theta try a high-pass on your 12" driver, it will 'open up' the sound. I had the same experience with my 15" Fane drivers. Initially I thought I would not need a sub because the 15" drivers can surely handle bass - which is true - but then when I got a sub and I applied proper integration (with LPF and HPF, delay, etc.) the sound of the Fanes became even more effortless and more 'open' (for the lack of a better word)

Now after ~5 years of experience with all sorts of full range drivers I would definitely recommend using a properly integrated sub, regardless of their size

I did mention that a sub was an absolute necessity on the large full range drivers, not using a high pass with subs has always given me the best results with more conventional speakers. If, as you say the high pass opened the sound on your fane. I will try a high pass active bi-amp to verify the difference.

 

[Purité Audio]

“full range’ speakers with a whizzer cone are amongst the worst speakers I have ever heard.
Keith

 

[Theta]

“full range’ speakers with a whizzer cone are amongst the worst speakers I have ever heard.
Keith

Can you list the other worst speakers you have ever heard.

 

[Killingbeans]

You will need a lot of DSP though - if you want a nice & flat response

A nice and flat on axis response... The off axis response will probably just become even more garbage.

 

[Purité Audio]

Anything that hasn’t seen a microphone during its development, typically ‘tuned’ by the ‘designer’.
Keith

 

[Theta]

Anything that hasn’t seen a microphone during its development, typically ‘tuned’ by the ‘designer’.
Keith

All the full range drivers mentioned in my post and other replies have seen a microphone in its development by the manufacturer, Eminence, Beyma, Visaton. The basic idea is to avoid filtering and questionable integration.