Tower vs bookshelf driver size and sub integration

[djb]

For home theater specifically (midsized room) will you generally get better dynamics and sub integration with a smaller tower with 5 inch drivers or a bookshelf with 6 inch driver? Assuming similar sensitivity and quality of components.

Considering upgrades for my LCR and trying to decide on a smaller tower vs bookshelf with 6 inch driver (Elac db63).

 

[sigbergaudio]

There's no simple / general answer to this. If you share both models you are considering it will be easier to give specific advice.

 

[digitalfrost]

That is impossible to say because it depends very much on the drivers. 1" difference between drivers is not that much. Enclosure volume might play a big role, depending on the TSP. If you care about it going loud, you're probably better off choosing a speaker with higher sensitivty, regardless of the other parameters. In general you need to pick any 2:

- Loud
- Deep bass
- Small enclosure size

 

[amper42]

My experience has been don't expect much from a 5" driver. The difference between a 5" versus a 6" can be HUGE. The example I tried was comparing the Revel M105 (5") against the BMR Monitors (6"). In this case, the M105 sounded like a toy compared to the full rich sound of the BMR monitor. No comparison. Obviously, it's not going to be the same with all 5" driver based speakers but anything smaller than 6" and I'm not interested anymore.

 

[djb]

It is tough I guess. The tower vs bookshelf seems to favor tower for pure spl and bookshelf for space. How about comparing the Elac df53 vs the Elac db63. I have a pair of 10 inch speed woofers from
rSL and sitting position is about 9 ft distance.

I keep waffling between tower vs book. It seems the mid base above 80hz cutoff would possibly favor the larger driver in the db63... theoretically.

 

[digitalfrost]

Ok that is a very different question. The DF53 has 3 5.25" woofers. The area Sd is the radius squared * Pi, so guessing the effective diameters I would say the DF53 has about twice the total membrane area compared to the DB63.

They are specced similar with regards to how low they go and how sensitive they are.

All else being equal I would say get the DF53. But if you have subwoofers anyway that will take the low frequencies away from the speakers, I think the bookshelves will be good enough. What you buy with the towers is the ability to play low frequencies loud, but this is not something you require since you already have stuff that can play low frequencies loud.

Found some measurements for the DB63:

ELAC Debut 3.0 DB63-BK Bookshelf Speakers Review « 7Review

In 2016, Elac relaunched its “Debut” entry-level series with the help of star designer Andrew Jones, rapidly conquering the North American market. Now the

7review.com

They don't have a lot of volume below the upper bass hump, so I would cross these over more like 100-120hz. If the subs are close to the speakers this can work, if they are not you might have localization issues. I guess if you ignore the bass hump and assume the normal sensitivity....what is normal sensitivity. These are nowhere near the claimed the 87dB?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The tower vs bookshelf seems to favor tower for pure spl and bookshelf for space.

Only if you put the bookshelf speaker on a shelf and not on a stand. On the other hand, placement on the shelf and, likely, up against a wall may be more significant an issue than tower vs. bookshelf speaker choice.

 

[DVDdoug]

A subwoofer can be tricky to integrate if you're not using an AVR which will have an output for a powered subwoofer and a crossover ("bass management"). With an AVR you can also use the "point one" LFE channel in movies.

will you generally get better dynamics...?

A bigger woofer with more bass, or a powerful cranked-up subwoofer will give you the impression of more dynamics, but technically speakers are dynamically linear unless you turn them up to the point where they, or the amplifier, distorts. Dynamic range is the difference between the noise floor and how loud you can go.

 

[Laserjock]

My experience has been don't expect much from a 5" driver. The difference between a 5" versus a 6" can be HUGE. The example I tried was comparing the Revel M105 (5") against the BMR Monitors (6"). In this case, the M105 sounded like a toy compared to the full rich sound of the BMR monitor. No comparison. Obviously, it's not going to be the same with all 5" driver based speakers but anything smaller than 6" and I'm not interested anymore.

The BMR is a 3 way and the speaker cabinet is 20" (508mm) H × 8" (203.2mm) W × 12.5" (317.5mm) D. Net weight: 32lb (14.5kg) each.

vs

M105 2 way
Dimensions (H x W x D): 14" x 7-7/8" x 9-3/4" (356mm x 200mm x 248mm)

Weight 15.7 Ib (7.2kg)

Both great speakers but definite physical differences.

 

[djb]

Thanks for the responses. I tried to be succinct in my first post since I personally lose interest in wordy posts. I may have been too brief.

Full story. Finished basement with 2 primary seats; 75 inch Sony. Denon AVR 1700h, pair of 10 inch RSL Speedwoofers, Emotiva C1+ center, b1+ books as L/R. It sounds good but the subs over power the little b1+ bookshelves. I don't play really loud, maybe 80db ish peaks but the b1+ just can't keep up. I initially wanted to get Emotiva towers or XB2 bookshelf but I'm nervous about the power, so I'd probably be upgrading the AVR sooner than I liked. This seems like chasing bad $ just to stay with an older 4 ohm hard to drive center. It occured to me it would be easier to just go for an easier to drive LCR speaker set and keep the existing Denon for now. I prefer less bright speakers anyway.

So the dilemma is a larger bookshelf or smaller towers to pair with existing gear. I think the larger df63 would be a little to big for my needs and I'd rather spend $ to get the larger Elac center with 6 inch drivers vs the 5.

 

[OCA]

Thanks for the responses. I tried to be succinct in my first post since I personally lose interest in wordy posts. I may have been too brief.

Full story. Finished basement with 2 primary seats; 75 inch Sony. Denon AVR 1700h, pair of 10 inch RSL Speedwoofers, Emotiva C1+ center, b1+ books as L/R. It sounds good but the subs over power the little b1+ bookshelves. I don't play really loud, maybe 80db ish peaks but the b1+ just can't keep up. I initially wanted to get Emotiva towers or XB2 bookshelf but I'm nervous about the power, so I'd probably be upgrading the AVR sooner than I liked. This seems like chasing bad $ just to stay with an older 4 ohm hard to drive center. It occured to me it would be easier to just go for an easier to drive LCR speaker set and keep the existing Denon for now. I prefer less bright speakers anyway.

So the dilemma is a larger bookshelf or smaller towers to pair with existing gear. I think the larger df63 would be a little to big for my needs and I'd rather spend $ to get the larger Elac center with 6 inch drivers vs the 5.

You can remove that center speaker from your system completely. If your front left and right are decently placed and if your regular audience is not rows of seats spread over a wide area, you don't need a center speaker. Dialogues will form higher up in the center and the AVR will also benefit from more power left for other speakers. Subs overpowering bookshelves sounds to me like incorrectly dialed in bass response in the room.

 

[Oddball]

Would not be so quick to recommend removing the center from the setup - but if only one listening position, and lesser requirement to the side seats, is is feasible. Better center will always perform better facepalm but will also need a bit of a budget to do that.

Subs should be in check so a bit more attention to the Audy setup could work well.

Upgrading AVR is a relatively big decision. So I would first explore options that are available right now. If upgrading, 3800H is a great one and if used could be picked up for attractive price. Will have newer Audy version as well as access to all the great goodies that @OCA has been working on for a while.

 

[OCA]

Would not be so quick to recommend removing the center from the setup - but if only one listening position, and lesser requirement to the side seats, is is feasible. Better center will always perform better facepalm but will also need a bit of a budget to do that.

Subs should be in check so a bit more attention to the Audy setup could work well.

Upgrading AVR is a relatively big decision. So I would first explore options that are available right now. If upgrading, 3800H is a great one and if used could be picked up for attractive price. Will have newer Audy version as well as access to all the great goodies that @OCA has been working on for a while.

1700h is XT and can benefit greatly from A1 Evo. Basic MultEQ less so. XT models have only one independent sub output and that would be a reason to upgrade since he has 2 subs. He could go for cheaper XT32 models like 3700. When buying second hand xt32, avoid models with cirrus logic chips which cannot do directional bass and process floating point filter coefficients.

 

[djb]

You can remove that center speaker from your system completely. If your front left and right are decently placed and if your regular audience is not rows of seats spread over a wide area, you don't need a center speaker. Dialogues will form higher up in the center and the AVR will also benefit from more power left for other speakers. Subs overpowering bookshelves sounds to me like incorrectly dialed in bass response in the room.

I've grown to really like the center for dialogue. W/o you have to crank volume to hear some movie mixes then when an action scene happens you get blown away.

Ive got the subs dialed in pretty well and the Denon MultEQ app which really helps with more options. Just when things get lively you the b1+'s just can't hang with the sub output. Also, I prefer a broad/bigger soundstage vs precision or 'air'. I am spoiled by the enveloping sound of my Lintons upstairs. The b1+ just sound so much smaller, as they are. Not their faulty, they also cost 1/10 the $.

 

[2Sunny]

For home theater specifically (midsized room) will you generally get better dynamics and sub integration with a smaller tower with 5 inch drivers or a bookshelf with 6 inch driver? Assuming similar sensitivity and quality of components.

Considering upgrades for my LCR and trying to decide on a smaller tower vs bookshelf with 6 inch driver (Elac db63).

Long before I joined AVR I tried to save money by going with bookshelf speakers instead of towers in my first home theater and was disappointed in the performance. More recently I just placed my Revel M16s in front and tried them in comparison to my towers. The M16s have 6.5 inch woofers and they did sound pretty darn good as primary L&Rs, but even though I do not consider myself an audiophile by any means, I would say that the towers produced a much better and fuller sound stage. I find it hard to believe that the same wouldn't be true when comparing Elac df53 to db63.

Not meaning to throw too much of a wrench into the conversation, but why not Revel F35s? Easier on your Denon to drive, more than likely a more neutral response, and cheaper than both Elacs you're considering.

Revel F35

 

[2Sunny]

Also for a center replacement why not this guy? 96 dB sensitivity so super easy to drive, great data suggesting it has nice neutral sound, 6.5 inch woofers, and cheaper than most Elacs. Plus since you said you only have 2 seats the issue of 2 way vs, 3 way for a center shouldn't be a problem.

Ascend Acoustic CMT340SE2

 

[djb]

Long before I joined AVR I tried to save money by going with bookshelf speakers instead of towers in my first home theater and was disappointed in the performance. More recently I just placed my Revel M16s in front and tried them in comparison to my towers. The M16s have 6.5 inch woofers and they did sound pretty darn good as primary L&Rs, but even though I do not consider myself an audiophile by any means, I would say that the towers produced a much better and fuller sound stage. I find it hard to believe that the same wouldn't be true when comparing Elac df53 to db63.

Not meaning to throw too much of a wrench into the conversation, but why not Revel F35s? Easier on your Denon to drive, more than likely a more neutral response, and cheaper than both Elacs you're considering.

Revel F35

View attachment 454927

Honestly, I know nothing about these speakers but I really appreciate the response. I will do so research on these.

 

[djb]

Hello. I wanted to give a follow up on this. I snagged a pair of open box db63 directly from Elac for $350. The look like new and sound great. They really remind me of my Lintons; very neutral and maybe a little less midrange clarity. Got them hooked up ran the Audyssey app ( side note: the app has been a real pain lately and I had to power cycle it and my phone to get it to complete the calculations). I have a mismatched LCR (Emotiva C1+ is still the C) but it sounded great. Much bigger feel and the subs weren't overpowering the sound like with the little b1+. We watched Tom Cruise's Oblivion and it was a real treat. Had it cranked pretty good and the Denon 1700 was just barely warm (I did add some rubber spacers under the unit to increase ventilation). I'm going to grab the Elac center when funds are there, and think my home theater will be set for a good while. Very happy, my wife even liked it.

 

[Oddball]

Hello. I wanted to give a follow up on this. I snagged a pair of open box db63 directly from Elac for $350. The look like new and sound great. They really remind me of my Lintons; very neutral and maybe a little less midrange clarity. Got them hooked up ran the Audyssey app ( side note: the app has been a real pain lately and I had to power cycle it and my phone to get it to complete the calculations). I have a mismatched LCR (Emotiva C1+ is still the C) but it sounded great. Much bigger feel and the subs weren't overpowering the sound like with the little b1+. We watched Tom Cruise's Oblivion and it was a real treat. Had it cranked pretty good and the Denon 1700 was just barely warm (I did add some rubber spacers under the unit to increase ventilation). I'm going to grab the Elac center when funds are there, and think my home theater will be set for a good while. Very happy, my wife even liked it.

Looks like you are set for now. Getting a like from the wife is priceless - can't recall last time I got one for any audio adventure .

 

[djb]

Looks like you are set for now. Getting a like from the wife is priceless - can't recall last time I got one for any audio adventure .

I'm not saying she was as thrilled as I, but she did say it was fun and sounded good. For such a "verbal" sex, they generally don't get nearly as excited about audio. Yes, I am generalizing - not trying to ruffle feathers