If all speakers measure flat, what is the point of auditioning?

[Anton D]

I have found that nothing makes me appreciate my own system more than going to an audio show.

I love shows and all, and try to hit as many as I can; andI like hearing new stuff, but I almost invariably get home and relax and think everything is OK.

 

[Platypus20]

I read all about the Revel f226e and the KEF R11 Metas speakers before I went to audition them, yes I want to hear them, but I also wanted to actually see them in the flesh. All I’d seen up and until then were pictures

 

[tmtomh]

Terrific! Thanks! That gives me a really good impression of how your preference evolved. It sounds like you've had one of those hoped-for-audiophile experiences of buying a speaker that is, for the most part, across the board better than your previous speakers. Sound like keepers.

I can't say I've had that experience, at least to that degree. The closest would probably be the Thiel 3.7 speakers I owned which just seemed to have strength in every single category from astounding imaging, clarity, dynamics, image focus and density, truthful timbre. They were just too big aesthetically and ergonomically for my room so I had to replace them, but during a huge "listen to everything out there" search I just couldn't find anything truly better. I'd say a made a sideways move to my Joseph speakers, which are a far better size fit for my room.

Speaking of which, I know what you mean in being excited by hearing a drum kick impact sounding more convincing. Long ago I reviewed some Waveform Mach Solo speakers, the manufacturer was all about dynamics and impact, and I'll never forget hearing kick drums actually have a similar room feel as a real kick drum - that sharp "bap" of the head on the bass drum with the lower end "push" of air/low frequencies in to the room. I'm getting some of that with my Joseph speakers, more than most I've owned, but not quite to the Waveform degree. But it's actually one of my "must have" ingredients. I want room feel, to feel the kick drum and bass, rather than a too buttoned down "audiophile bass" which just places kick drums and bass in a distant sound field, to be observed but not felt.




Though that's not ultimately my preference I still know just what you mean. I've set up my system for size and envelopment. But I hear plenty of speakers that do a more precise, controlled, monitor like presentation as you describe and I always appreciate it. There is something relaxing and satisfying about that presentation, where things are really well controlled happening in a nice distance in front of you, and I often get a feeling of a bit more insight in to the exact nature of some recordings.

That said, since my preference is ultimately envelopment I can start to crave that if it's not there. Once I've experienced a sensation on my system of a wide open soundscape for, say, orchestral work, that can almost make me feel like I'm there, it's something I can't give up.

As to settling on a last speaker: I'm fortunate to live in a city that still has quite a number of high end audio stores, so I can hear lots of the talked-about speakers. As well I'm nearby professional audio stores where I can hear the usual list of pro suspects, Genelec, Neumann, Dynaudio, Adam, JBL and on and on. (Though I haven't heard your particular model Genelec yet). Plus I still have friends in the audio review gig, so I am exposed to a constant array of different expensive loudspeakers that way too.

I always expect to hear something that my own system isn't doing as well, or "it would be nice if my system had a little more of THAT." And yet, despite hearing all these other systems, I have yet to hear one I'd actually want to replace my own. Every time without fail when I come home and spin the same tracks on mine it's like "oooh my God, this is soooo much more of what I like!" So I just know for me there's no perfect speaker, and I enjoy what I have.

Cheers and congrats on your happy days with the Genelecs!

Thanks! And same to you - glad you have found speakers that you really love and that fit your space. Also know what you mean about speakers being too big aesthetically and ergonomically. I ultimately didn't keep my father's Kappa 9's in my system for sonic reasons, but they're also just enormous (although very nice looking IMHO), and too often I felt like I was just looking at a wall of wood trim and grille cloth when I was listening. It was hard to feel immersed in the illusion of them "disappearing" because of good imaging when visually they were so enormous.

As to our differing personal preferences, I think it says a lot that we have no problem describing both the presentation that we prefer, and the one that we don't, in ways that are mutually intelligible. I think that's the essence of communication.

Finally, it's probably obvious from the above, but it seems to me the main difference in our preferences is related to dispersion patterns - and this distinction between direct and reflected sound, because speakers are transducers, lies at the heart of almost all the different personal preferences folks have when it comes to speakers.

 

[tmtomh]

The same way you measure all gin, by the quart

Touché.

 

[mhardy6647]

The same way you measure all gin, by the quart

Metric quart.

 

[allmanfan]

incredibly there is a poll here that asks if you can shop for equipment using just measurements alone and 52% say yes...that really is incredible

 

[ahofer]

incredibly there is a poll here that asks if you can shop for equipment using just measurements alone and 52% say yes...that really is incredible

You joined to say that? A lot of people don’t even have a choice now, and on-line purchases can be returned. And if you limit it to electronics…measurements are all you need.

 

[MattHooper]

As to our differing personal preferences, I think it says a lot that we have no problem describing both the presentation that we prefer, and the one that we don't, in ways that are mutually intelligible. I think that's the essence of communication.

I agree.

Forgive me but I must riff on this for a moment...

A long time ago before my brief reviewing stint, when I was asked to write audio reviews based on what some editors had seen of my forum posts, I struggled with the idea. I always felt measurements were important and that since I didn't have that knowledge, gear or aptitude, what could I really offer? But I was nonetheless so intrigued by the challenge of attempting to be a pair of virtual ears for a reader, knowing full well all the liabilities involved. How much can really be relayed by someone listening to speakers and describing the sound to someone else? Your remark gets at the essence of the challenge as I saw it: the ultimate success for me was if someone could read my description and think "I don't think I'd be satisfied with that speaker" or "I've heard that speaker and it really wasn't to my taste...but your description of the sound was accurate." Because the idea isn't to sell someone on a speaker, but just convey the character accurately. (That said, the speakers I reviewed were carefully sifted from my own super big speaker audition search, so I was purposely selected out speakers I'd found special in one way or another and felt it was worth writing about. I wasn't paid for the reviews and I wasn't out to get speakers at accommodation price since I'd already just bought the speakers I wanted).

I can imagine that having active speakers like your Genelecs also can help move the equipment part of things in to the background, in a nice way. (Not doing the audiophile fussing over amps 'n such, just knowing everything is well handled in the design of those neutral speakers).

Finally, it's probably obvious from the above, but it seems to me the main difference in our preferences is related to dispersion patterns - and this distinction between direct and reflected sound, because speakers are transducers, lies at the heart of almost all the different personal preferences folks have when it comes to speakers.

Yes I think in terms of the soundstaging and imaging preferences that would be right.

I appreciate a narrow dispersion speaker insofar as they can often have really precise imaging, which to me often translates in to a sense of solidity, and so that's something I want. But I also value immersion, big soundstaging and larger sonic images, and a bit less precision can help in that regard. For me the wider dispersion/room interaction can just widen and slightly bur out edges to give me the sense of sound happening in free space. So the desire for precise dense imaging and the desire for immersion and a certain lack of precision are at odds, and it's striking the right balance that has made dialing in a system fun and challenging.

I've mentioned before, but I managed to get as close to the best of both worlds that I've yet heard by first dialing my speakers in for a wide immersive "free space" sound, (so set wide apart, not a lot of toe-in) but then introducing a diffusor between the speakers which added this focus and solidity to the images, so they have the "free space" and big effect yet a lot of that focus and image density I want as well. At the recent Florida show, in the Joseph room, my reviewer friend heard Joseph playing the same Perspective 2 model I own. That room was getting good notices and my friend said it sounded really good but definitely not achieving what he heard from my set up. Obviously a sub-optimal hotel show room is going to be part of that, but I'm pretty sure some fanatical attention on my part has squeezed out some performance in these speakers.

 

[dfuller]

Okay, to sum up my opinion, more or less:

1. Measurements as we typically see them (on+off axis magnitude response alone) can help narrow choices down, within reason - keeping in mind that off axis response is much less crucial in spaces with highly absorbed ER vs other specs.
2. Only on+off axis magnitude response does not fully characterize a speaker, so it is worth hearing speakers once you've narrowed down with those measurements.

 

[Mr. Widget]

And if you limit it to electronics…measurements are all you need.

Not so fast. Don't overlook the human interface.

Beyond the aesthetics there is the tactile feel of the buttons and latency if any in the equipment responding. This is true for faceplate controls, physical remote controls, or virtual IP based controls.

 

[napilopez]

I have found that nothing makes me appreciate my own system more than going to an audio show.

I love shows and all, and try to hit as many as I can; andI like hearing new stuff, but I almost invariably get home and relax and think everything is OK.

Very much agree. I've gone to few audio shows, but having spent a a few years as a reviewer testing several dozen speakers, it personally just made me feel like the gap between the super high-end speakers and the very good normal or even budget speakers is much smaller than it's often made out to be, especially with EQ as an equalizer (see what I did there).

After all, sound from speakers can only be as good as "convincing". In many ways I feel 2-channel audio via speakers is essentially a solved problem. No speaker upgrade has ever made as big of an improvement as getting subs and EQ, or adding more channels.

These days I just want a decent speaker with enough power for my setup(not much) and EQ to my liking. For two channel, I like wide directivity, for surround, don't even care about that.

 

[ahofer]

Not so fast. Don't overlook the human interface.

Beyond the aesthetics there is the tactile feel of the buttons and latency if any in the equipment responding. This is true for faceplate controls, physical remote controls, or virtual IP based controls.

You don't learn about those from listening either

As I said, online purchases can typically be returned.

 

[Bren Derlin]

That's a shame, since most movie soundtracks sound really good.

TANGENT WARNING!!!

I love this comment - I totally agree. The HT market has a stigma that really good AVRs, even when paired with exceptional speakers, are poor at 2 channel music playback, even though they're fantastic at movie soundtrack playback. I've had rigs with separates, and now I have two rigs with AVRs (one with a Denon and M16 speakers, and one with an Anthem 540 8K and M106 speakers), and I'm ecstatic with the 2 channel music quality I get out of these systems.

 

[smallwonder]

all variables equal... yes of course because in that case they are the same.

But are all variable equal when shopping for speakers ?

Let me clarify if I may, or better yet ask another question. Would a speaker sound the same if they measure exactly alike or do other variables such as materials used come into play. Type of amplifier etcetera. The last example is more than likely a stretch. My original musings were not presented to insight a riot.

 

[solderdude]

IF they measure exactly alike is a tall order (does not exist IRL). But if they did, and measure the same in all aspects, then they would sound the same as they produce the same sound. Even when made from different materials.

The exact same goes for amplifiers. When you make one with tubes and one with silicon and they measure exactly the same (in all aspects) then they sound the same.

Now... if a 2 speakers (measured at 1 distance and 1 similar SPL at 1 angle in say anechoic conditions) show the same frequency response they might or might not sound the same in other conditions than the single condition it was measured in and at.

The same is true for amplifiers. They could have the same frequency response on a test bench (but may differ substantially in other aspects than frequency response) with a resistive 'easy' load between 20Hz and 20kHz within say ... 0.1dB still can sound different on actual speakers but under certain circumstances might still sound the same (be indistinguishable).

Speakers measuring the same and amplifiers measuring the same, however, does not exits IRL unless they are of the same make and model number.
When differences start to exceed certain thresholds (in certain aspects or all aspects) then differences become audible.

 

[kemmler3D]

incredibly there is a poll here that asks if you can shop for equipment using just measurements alone and 52% say yes...that really is incredible

The poll says you "can", not that you should or that it would be the best option.

If you know what you like and you know what you're looking at, you can buy speakers based on measurements and be happy. I did!

However, I think everyone would agree it's better to hear a speaker before buying it - if you can. That's not always an option. So it's good that we have measurements to look at.

Most people don't listen or look at measurements before buying, they just read a few reviews on Amazon...

 

[ahofer]

Would a speaker sound the same if they measure exactly alike

As @solderdude says, if they measure exactly alike, they sound the same. In both the speaker and amplifier examples he gives, there is a question of how you get a complete measurements suite. This is quite hard for speakers, but easier for amplifiers. "Flat", as this thread started, refers to on-axis frequency response. But in a room, we have to deal with the off-axis response and reflections, as well as distortion and compression.

For amps, the complication is the load the speaker presents to the amplifier, which can interact with the signal and cause frequency response deviations. So the measurement loads are where people quibble about amplifier measurements.

Nonetheless, in real world use, many amplifiers can cover the normal variety of speaker loads and are indistinguishable. See several blind tests in this thread.

So I'd say we are on much firmer ground with amps than speakers, but there are always corner cases.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Most people don't listen or look at measurements before buying, they just read a few reviews on Amazon...

If that is true, what a sad state of affairs.

 

[tmtomh]

If that is true, what a sad state of affairs.

I would say that a lot of more engaged, higher-end buyers do something similar: they rely on what subjective reviewers they trust write; or they look at measurements to gain some insight into how the reviewer says they perform, but the reviewer's impressions are still the decisive factor.

 

[kemmler3D]

If that is true, what a sad state of affairs.

I'm not talking about high-end stuff per se. But most of the (millions) of $20-100 Bluetooth speakers are bought sound-unheard. Probably the same goes for most lifestyle speakers. So numerically speaking, I would bet big bucks that the majority (maybe the vast majority) of speakers sold are not auditioned first.