I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF IT.

[Beave]

Its makes a difference to me and thats all it matters to me. So, this is not up for debate or discussion.

Any claims are up for skepticism, whether the claimant likes it or not.

 

[Beave]

The voltage drop difference across a OFC cable and silver coated cable should be so small as to be imperceptible.

Well, he claimed it increased brightness of his speakers, which would imply a frequency response change - all from a cable coating. Not from a large change in length, nor from a large change in gauge. Just from a coating, from one material to another with very similar conductivity.

The cable resistance would barely change, and same for the capacitance and inductance.

So it's a highly dubious claim.

 

[Doodski]

Well, he claimed it increased brightness of his speakers, which would imply a frequency response change - all from a cable coating. Not from a large change in length, nor from a large change in gauge. Just from a coating, from one material to another with very similar conductivity.

The cable resistance would barely change, and same for the capacitance and inductance.

So it's a highly dubious claim.

I agree.

 

[escksu]

Any claims are up for skepticism, whether the claimant likes it or not.

You are free to interpret it in anyway you want. Btw, stating a personal experience is not a claim. They are 2 different things.

A claim means: an assertion that something is true. I did not ever mentioned that my experience is true. My experience could be placebo, could be due to other factors as well.

So, what I don't agree is you using the word 'claim'.

 

[RayDunzl]

A friend was switching out cables in his system. For fun, we were listening as cables were switched out. We were not expecting a difference, and both he and I heard an improvement.

Obvious rhetorical question:

Why don't the new cables ever sound worse?


Disclaimer:

Bi-wire AWG2 occupying a proud position in the rat's nest

19 strands of approximately AWG18 in the sleeve.

The cable was manufactured in 1992.

No claims other than low DC resistance, no cost (would have all been sold to the recycler, so that opportunity cost was lost), and they work.

 

[MarcT]

Yes, I fully agreed. However, this also means I cannot just put a blanket statement and say ALL cables sound the same (keyword here is ALL). If someone decide to use a 30AWG wire, I don't think it will sound the same as 12AWG one.

So, I would say, as long as we adhere to some simple guidelines (some examples below), its ok.

1. ~12AWG is recommended.
2. Avoid CCA. No reason to use them.
3. Avoid solid core. Use stranded wire.
4. Use a high purity copper. ASTM C11040 specifies 99.9% purity for electrical copper wires. Hence, there is no reason to use one that is copper alloy (eg 70% copper). Oxygen free copper is pretty much the norm these days as well.
5. Shielding is not needed for speaker cables. IF installed in walls, do not run them together with power cables.

Just curious, what is the down side of solid core?

 

[MarcT]

So if I understand correctly, you would reject any cable which seemed to sound better than others because that outcome is inconsistent with your beliefs about cables? If so, then I guess you and I have different priorities.

And just for the record, I do not BEGIN to expect you or anyone else to alter their beliefs because of anything I say. I related my experience in response to Chrispy's request.

Yes, it does seem strange that someone would reject a cable which sounded better to them, which presumably would confer greater enjoyment, because it's just not supposed to be possible.

 

[drplinker]

Just curious, what is the down side of solid core?

Skin effect - affects only alternating current through a conductor.

 

[MarcT]

Skin effect - affects only alternating current through a conductor.

Now I'm confused. It seems like I consistently see people here say that skin effect is a non-issue in the audible range. Is that not correct?

 

[boselover61]

I bought a new expensive shirt and i felt different too. Not better just different. Probably because the old ones didnt fit anymore since i got fat.

 

[Beave]

Just curious, what is the down side of solid core?

Lack of flexibility, and crack-ability (is that a word??).

 

[Chrispy]

The only thing I wanted to do is to point out what amirm said. Thats all. What you think or believe has nothing to do with me and neither am I here to change it.

You made no such actual connection really. Just self justification for your own wire fetish perhaps? Otherwise what is your point?

 

[IronPyrite]

Folks... This is first and foremost a science forum. There are plenty of other forums where no one will give you a hard time if you discuss subjective observations. Many folks come here as refugees from other forums, out of exhaustion from hearing "unprovable" at best, and potentially "snake oil" at worst, claims in literally every forum post.

Subjective observations aren't against forum rules, just be prepare to get "where's the data to back your claim?" challenges from folks who come here because they'd rather discuss claims based on facts.

For example, @drplinker stated above that "'Skin effect' affects only alternating current through a conductor." While I disagree based on my own experience of using solid vs. stranded speaker cables, I'm not going to argue the point until I find a scientific source I can cite as evidence to back my assertion (sorry if it sounds like I'm passively arguing the point by using it as an example - that was not my intent).

 

[drplinker]

Now I'm confused. It seems like I consistently see people here say that skin effect is a non-issue in the audible range. Is that not correct?

From my EE course, I recall skin effect being a factor in long distance power transmission at 22kV 60Hz, indeed skin depth (current carrying cross section) reduces with increase in frequency. I don't recall any formulae now, but from wikipedia:

Found this https://www.belden.com/blogs/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency/ (not verified)

 

[JSmith]

cable which seemed to sound better than others

"Seemed"... "better"... what?

If a cable has a sound compared to others... get a refund or throw it away, it may be damaged or inferior.



JSmith

 

[escksu]

You made no such actual connection really. Just self justification for your own wire fetish perhaps? Otherwise what is your point?

What you think has nothing to do with me. I am not obliged to justify anything to anyone in this forum. If you dislike what I post, you are free to ignore. If you think it is against the rules, you are free to report it to the mods.

 

[Chrispy]

This help? https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

 

[trl]

I’m not going to search for adjectives to describe what happened. I’ll just say that the sound was different. Not better but different.

I was stunned. It wasn’t supposed to be different. All cables sound like same. The measurements prove it. But the difference wasn’t subtle, it was unmistakable.

To be continued in Part II.

I do like your article, mostly because this was happening to all of us at least once in a lifetime. I'm not speaking about cables only, but also about perceived (not audible! and not measurable!) differences in sound after changing a piece from our audio gear. Sometimes was maybe a small channel imbalance, sometimes was the same track played at different volumes, but sometimes was simply our mind playing tricks with us, especially when purchasing new audio equipment.

I am going to present here couple of times when this was happening to me:
- 1) When I swapped the amplifier from Pioneer A-209R to Yamaha A-S701 I felt lack of deep bass in the living room, although I had zero expectancy of any sound changing, because I haven't swapped the old amp just to do an upgrade, but I simply needed a new amp in the living room so I can move the old one to my kid's room. I knew my mind is playing tricks on me. So, I decided to not listen to my new amp for two weeks hoping that things will get back to normal and this is what it actually happened after two weeks of waiting: deep bass got back there without doing nothing else.
- 2) I swapped 2 x SVS SB1000 (2 x 300 W RMS) with 1 x SVS SB3000 (1 x 800 W RMS) and I felt a lack of subbas, although the windows were almost cracking during the tests I did. WTF?!? This was impossible, of course, so I left everything untouched for couple of weeks, then I left in vacation (I almost forgot I've upgraded the subs), then when I got back the subbass was absolutely impeccable and way better than it used to be with the older and smaller subwoofers. I've also compared the REW graphs proving that on the last octave, between 20-40 Hz, the SB3000 is filling it better and at a higher SPL than 2 x SB1000, so I won't let my mind playing tricks on me anymore with this audiophoolia stuff. I will always use REW or null-test or A/B test or I'll simply wait for couple of weeks for the "new audio gear" effect to pass by.

It's all about our mind's expectations when we purchase new audio gear, even if we think that the new gear should not sound and not measure any better, our mind sometimes might disagree.

Note: Hope you noticed I've used the "perceived" term instead of "audible", as I really think this is the most correct word for such cases.

P.S.: Somehow on-topic: I'm using 4mm2 pure OFC copper and gold-plated bananas from my amp to the speakers. This will ensure low cable resistance up to at least 10m lenght, so damping factor and power loss should have almost no effect here. I got the cheapest brand available on Thomann (Sommercable I think)... about 70 EUR per total (about 15 meters for both speakers + 4 bananas).

 

[Chrispy]

IF you think that way, so be it. What you think has nothing to do with me.

You were the one who brought it up. Figured where you were going with it in any case.

 

[escksu]

Folks... This is first and foremost a science forum. There are plenty of other forums where no one will give you a hard time if you discuss subjective observations. Many folks come here as refugees from other forums, out of exhaustion from hearing "unprovable" at best, and potentially "snake oil" at worst, claims in literally every forum post.

Subjective observations aren't against forum rules, just be prepare to get "where's the data to back your claim?" challenges from folks who come here because they'd rather discuss claims based on facts.

For example, @drplinker stated above that "'Skin effect' affects only alternating current through a conductor." While I disagree based on my own experience of using solid vs. stranded speaker cables, I'm not going to argue the point until I find a scientific source I can cite as evidence to back my assertion (sorry if it sounds like I'm passively arguing the point by using it as an example - that was not my intent).

This is not recognise by any authority nor and science institutions to be a science forum. Hence, I would not call it a science forum. I would say just forum dedicated to audio related matters.