• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

How to EQ this monstrosity?

OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
But if HDMI is required then you're looking at a MiniDSP Flex HT or something at $600 or so, which is taking a much bigger bite out of the budget.
Yeah, it's a pretty thin market unfortunately - and if I want something with Dirac capability, it's pretty much either one of the higher-end AVRs or the Flex HT (which I would also have to pair with an amp).

Do the 90 Hz and 220 Hz peeks, leave the first one and adjust it to 76 dB (which by the way is target to lower mentioned peeks) Harman later if you must, use 4th PEQ to slope down the highs and that's pretty much what you can achieve with only 4 PEQ's.
Why slope down the highs? The frequency response already has a decent downward slope just from the natural room response.
 

kemmler3D

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
3,346
Likes
6,826
Location
San Francisco
Yeah, it's a pretty thin market unfortunately - and if I want something with Dirac capability, it's pretty much either one of the higher-end AVRs or the Flex HT (which I would also have to pair with an amp).


Why slope down the highs? The frequency response already has a decent downward slope just from the natural room response.
You know, I forgot this earlier, but the WiiM amp is supposed to be getting full room correction (or at least more EQ bands) so I think this problem will solve itself soon enough. I would still push you to consider 1 or more subs, will definitely help with the dips in bass.
 
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
You know, I forgot this earlier, but the WiiM amp is supposed to be getting full room correction (or at least more EQ bands) so I think this problem will solve itself soon enough. I would still push you to consider 1 or more subs, will definitely help with the dips in bass.
Yup, they said they're releasing full room correction and 8-band PEQ in the very near future, which honestly makes the WiiM Amp such an incredible value proposition, it's really hard to justify getting anything else, as you'd probably have to shell out $2k for an equivalent setup (in terms of functionality) using more traditional gear.
 

Beershaun

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
1,873
Likes
1,920
I'd get a subwoofer. That will be the best way to address your low frequency problems. You can position it somewhere else in the room that is less offensive acoustically, set the crossover at 90hz and the eq it.
 

kemmler3D

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
3,346
Likes
6,826
Location
San Francisco
honestly makes the WiiM Amp such an incredible value proposition, it's really hard to justify getting anything else, as you'd probably have to shell out $2k for an equivalent setup (in terms of functionality) using more traditional gear.
Tend to agree. The simplicity, price, and features are kind of what I hoped I'd be able to find when I started putting together a 2.1 setup a few years ago. I was pretty stunned to realize that MiniDSP or 4-figure AVRs were the only real options, given that you can do the equivalent processing on a $100 PC for free, with power to spare.

If they would just do a few tweaks (PFFB?) to the amp section to get rid of load dependence, it would leave very few reasons not to buy it. As it stands, you're going to get +/-1dB here and there from the load dependence, which is certainly bad (for an amp) but it's not the end of the world, plus correctable with the onboard EQ, so...
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,161
Likes
2,449
Why slope down the highs? The frequency response already has a decent downward slope just from the natural room response.
Why not with a self filter when you can?
You just regulate peak at 40 Hz towards the target SPL considering in the equal loudness to about +4 at 76 dB (0 at 86 and so on but 76 is loud enough for good detail listening and in line with your current measurements). Good bad part is a 170 Hz spike on L speaker as it won't sound good but at least makes L+R more even. I am telling you how to best use 4 PEQ's that you have and use room to your advantage.
 
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
Also, one thing I was wondering - pretty much every room EQ guide says "only cut peaks, never boost dips", going on to say how dips are caused by cancellation, so boosting won't do anything. This makes intuitive sense, but I decided to try boosting the dips anyway, just to see.

Boost EQ curve.png


And here are the measured results, pre- and post-EQ (with only 4 bands!)
Boost EQ.jpg


That looks (and sounds) like a significant improvement to me. Much better than the cut-only EQ filters I tried, as it's actually addressing the two dips at 60 and 150 Hz.

But this raises the question - why did this work out so well for me, despite going against the conventional wisdom of room EQ?
 

kemmler3D

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 25, 2022
Messages
3,346
Likes
6,826
Location
San Francisco
why did this work out so well for me, despite going against the conventional wisdom of room EQ?
So, in theory, a "true" null is where a sound wave bounces back and cancels itself out completely. 2 - 2 = 0. This is where the big dips come from.

In this case, you can't EQ it and you'll only cause problems if you try, because 4 - 4 = 0 too. Boosting does nothing to the null.

In practice, "true" nulls are rare because sound doesn't reflect or cancel perfectly, it bounces off irregular surfaces randomly, you have multiple speakers spaced out by a significant fraction of the wavelengths in question, etc. Also, even if you do have true nulls, or close to it, you might not actually be sitting in one... just near one.

So, in practice, EQing the dips does work to some extent. I've had the same experience myself.

However, it can be problematic even if your measurements look better.

Where there are nulls, there can also be peaks. So if noise spreading to your neighbors or throughout the house is a concern, you just added a few dB to that problem.

You can also run out of amp power / speaker excursion pretty easily when you boost nulls in the bass. You would need to add AT LEAST 10dB to pull up that dip at 65hz. Unless you actually have 10dB of power and excursion to spare at that frequency, you're going to have a bad time. Most systems have just enough bass output to get by. It's the most difficult and expensive part of a speaker system. So demanding 2-10x from the bass is often a nonstarter.

I'm personally in favor of EQing dips YOLO style, but you need to know what you're doing. I would also not do it unless I had at least one sub in action, since in that case you get A) more headroom / SPL capability and B) a better chance of not having "true" nulls.
 
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
You can also run out of amp power / speaker excursion pretty easily when you boost nulls in the bass. You would need to add AT LEAST 10dB to pull up that dip at 65hz. Unless you actually have 10dB of power and excursion to spare at that frequency, you're going to have a bad time. Most systems have just enough bass output to get by. It's the most difficult and expensive part of a speaker system. So demanding 2-10x from the bass is often a nonstarter.

I'm personally in favor of EQing dips YOLO style, but you need to know what you're doing. I would also not do it unless I had at least one sub in action, since in that case you get A) more headroom / SPL capability and B) a better chance of not having "true" nulls.
Thanks, this is some great, nuanced info.
A few questions:
  1. How can I figure out my available headroom at each frequency, both in terms of amp power and speaker excursion?
  2. How can I relate this figure back to the boost EQ to determine whether I can pull it off safely?
  3. What are the potential risks of not doing this properly and exceeding my headroom? I certainly don't know what I'm doing, but it seemed fine when I tried it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,161
Likes
2,449
@wardzin
1. +3 dB = 2x W so +3 as maximum but even that if you think you must. Lower the frequency is it sucks more power.
2. Amplifier clipping, speakers compressing, end of the world coming and so on but you will hear it.
3. Walk like Egyptian! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If you want give me raw measurements mdat file (zip it up and upload hire) and I will make you EQ.
 

leighhull72

New Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2024
Messages
2
Likes
0
Just out of interest, could someone here download the ‘housecurve’ IOS app make a measurement using the phone microphone and then use REW and post the the findings here?
 
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
If you want give me raw measurements mdat file (zip it up and upload hire) and I will make you EQ.
Thank you, that would be awesome! Keep in mind that the WiiM Amp can't EQ the speakers individually, so I'm limited to 4-band PEQ to L+R.
 

Attachments

  • R3 Meta.mdat.zip
    23.4 KB · Views: 24

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,161
Likes
2,449
Thank you, that would be awesome! Keep in mind that the WiiM Amp can't EQ the speakers individually, so I'm limited to 4-band PEQ to L+R.
Try like this to 76 dB target:
PK Fc 41.75 Hz Gain -4.20 dB Q 4.282
PK Fc 225.0 Hz Gain -5.40 dB Q 9.812
PK Fc 93.20 Hz Gain -10.10 dB Q 3.014
PK Fc 588.0 Hz Gain -2.10 dB Q 1.035
It's not silky smooth but I couldn't get it better with 4 PEQ's, maybe someone else will.
R3M 4PEQ.jpg
 
Last edited:
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
Try like this to 76 dB target:
PK Fc 41.75 Hz Gain -4.20 dB Q 4.282
PK Fc 225.0 Hz Gain -5.40 dB Q 9.812
PK Fc 93.20 Hz Gain -10.10 dB Q 3.014
PK Fc 588.0 Hz Gain -2.10 dB Q 1.035
It's not silky smooth but I couldn't get it better with 4 PEQ's, maybe someone else will.
View attachment 352602
Thanks! I tried your EQ, and I had slightly better detail, but it also removed all the bass :/

How come you're going for a flat frequency response target though? Shouldn't there be a downward-sloping "room curve" or Harman target? Since anechoically-flat speakers will still exhibit a slope in an actual room.
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,161
Likes
2,449
Thanks! I tried your EQ, and I had slightly better detail, but it also removed all the bass :/

How come you're going for a flat frequency response target though? Shouldn't there be a downward-sloping "room curve" or Harman target? Since anechoically-flat speakers will still exhibit a slope in an actual room.
It's to loud 76 dB SPL target and it's not flat, maybe masked a bit at 56 Hz. We can't call it curve to start with, it's natural speakers response in a room. They counted in equal loudness normalisation and so did I and that's why it looks elevated in bass and sloping gently down lot before 1 KHz ("Harman curve") as bass bost will do that.
I use straight no bass boosted one as I do calibration to 86~88 dB SPL and use equal loudness compensation (ISO 226 2003) from there. You never really told me desired SPL level so I assumed what I consider loud enough is best bet and will be good for cuple dB up or down.
 
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
You never really told me desired SPL level so I assumed what I consider loud enough is best bet and will be good for cuple dB up or down.
Why does the volume matter? Shouldn't frequency response (and any filters) stay in proportion regardless of the SPL?
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,161
Likes
2,449
Why does the volume matter? Shouldn't frequency response (and any filters) stay in proportion regardless of the SPL?
SPL matter a lot. It's equal loudness compensation or how you perceive it to approximately A scale. So when you turn SPL down it sounds like there is no bass or other way around. So you do it to desired level you want to listen to or use automatic correction to it (calibrating on SPL level that doesn't need any and flat) but WiiM doesn't have it.
 
OP
W

wardzin

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2024
Messages
18
Likes
12
I'm kind of curious though, is it normal and/or desirable for the R3's high-end to start sloping downwards @ 2 KHz? I just compared with my old Edifier R1700BT speakers, and they don't exhibit the same downwards slope.

R3 vs Edifier.jpg
 

Sokel

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
6,038
Likes
6,058
I'm kind of curious though, is it normal and/or desirable for the R3's high-end to start sloping downwards @ 2 KHz? I just compared with my old Edifier R1700BT speakers, and they don't exhibit the same downwards slope.

View attachment 359371
Personal taste,but I wouldn't stand the red curve for a minute.
Green on the other hand (if corrected with anechoic data or even better not corrected at all ) I would totally live with.
 

ozzy9832001

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2023
Messages
404
Likes
257
I'm kind of curious though, is it normal and/or desirable for the R3's high-end to start sloping downwards @ 2 KHz? I just compared with my old Edifier R1700BT speakers, and they don't exhibit the same downwards slope.

View attachment 359371

Without listening to the speakers, it hard to say if that's the actually response for the edifiers. Microphone placement in relation to the tweeters can change results dramatically. If the microphone isn't exactly equidistant from both, it can cause strange responses.

Since we're more sensitive to the frequencies from about 1khz to 5khz -ish, the downward slow on the R3 makes sense. The perceived volume would probably be close.

If the edifiers were an ultra concern, I'd pair them with a subwoofer. The response on them up until about 3k is actually quite good; crossing over a sub around 80hz would probably help to fill in the minor void from 110 ish to 200hz.
 
Top Bottom