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How to EQ this monstrosity?

wardzin

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I recently got the Monitor Audio Bronze 100 Speakers (with no subwoofer), and I have them sitting on a TV console in my living room.

I measured the speakers with the MMM, and you can see, the left and right speakers are very unequal in terms of frequency response (especially in the sub-100 Hz region). I've narrowed this down to the fact that the right side of the room is a glass wall, while the left side of the room is essentially open (leading to the rest of my condo). My room treatment options are limited - I can maybe put curtains on the glass wall, but even then, I'm not sure how much that would do for sub-100 Hz frequencies. I also can't really set the speakers up anywhere else due to living in a small condo. Room dimensions are about 3m x 3m x 3m (but the left side is open).

Bronze 100.jpg


I made a basic EQ just to attentuate the obvious room modes at 90 and 220 Hz based on the L+R response, but subjectively, it seemed to reduce the bass a bit too much. Any thoughts on how to approach this?

Bronze 100 EQ.jpg
 
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droid2000

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I recently got the Monitor Audio Bronze 100 Speakers (with no subwoofer), and I have them sitting on a TV console in my living room.

I measured the speakers with the MMM, and you can see, the left and right speakers are very unequal in terms of frequency response (especially in the sub-100 Hz region). I've narrowed this down to the fact that the right side of the room is a glass wall, while the left side of the room is essentially open (leading to the rest of my condo). My room treatment options are limited - I can maybe put curtains on the glass wall, but even then, I'm not sure how much that would do for sub-100 Hz frequencies. I also can't really set the speakers up anywhere else due to living in a small condo. Room dimensions are about 3m x 3m x 3m (but the left side is open).

View attachment 349853

I made a basic EQ just to attentuate the obvious room modes at 90 and 220 Hz based on the L+R response, but subjectively, it seemed to reduce the bass a bit too much. Any thoughts on how to approach this?

View attachment 349863
I would suggest EQ'ing the L and R channels separately, not together. Create separate filters for each channel. Then post results here.
 

Chrispy

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You sure there's no other way to arrange the gear in the room?
 
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wardzin

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I would suggest EQ'ing the L and R channels separately, not together. Create separate filters for each channel. Then post results here.
Sorry, I should have mentioned, I'm using a WiiM Amp, so unfortunately there's no way to EQ the channels separately (and I'm also limited to 4-band PEQ).

You sure there's no other way to arrange the gear in the room?
Yeah, putting the speakers against the opposite wall will have the same issue, just with the left speaker. And I can't put the speakers against the glass wall, because the aforementioned glass wall is really the balcony entrance, so I'd be blocking that.
 
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wardzin

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Though, I should say, I'm still within the return period of the Bronze 100s, and I was wondering - would better speakers with better directivity potentially sound better in an acoustically-suboptimal room like this one? Or would this be a big issue regardless of the speakers?
 

HarmonicTHD

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Though, I should say, I'm still within the return period of the Bronze 100s, and I was wondering - would better speakers with better directivity potentially sound better in an acoustically-suboptimal room like this one? Or would this be a big issue regardless of the speakers?
Every speaker placed in the same location in your room will produce similar room modes (low frequency dips and peaks) when recorded from your listening position.

You can have a look at the Harman preference curve (slight bass elevation and roll off at around -0.5 to -1dB per octave from ca 1kHz on up) and start with these as a “target curve” for your EQ. And from there adjust the bass until you like it. Plus 4 Bands are not really a lot so only EQ up to ca 300Hz and don’t “waste” the few bands on higher frequencies.

However keep in mind the Monitor Audio I think are not really flat (anecoically) and as far as I remember have a peak towards higher frequencies which can give the impression that they are bright. Plus their bass is not really extended either (small speaker) so there are physical limits to boost bass. In that case think about adding an additional subwoofer. Eg the KEF R3 exhibit better FR but also with them a sub is recommended as with pretty much every bookshelf speaker.
 
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wardzin

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Plus their bass is not really extended either (small speaker) so there are physical limits to boost bass. In that case think about adding an additional subwoofer. Eg the KEF R3 exhibit better FR but also with them a sub is recommended as with pretty much every bookshelf speaker.
I thought the Bronze 100 had better-than-average bass (for bookshelves, anyway) due to their 8" woofers. Though, I was actually considering upgrading to the KEF R3 Meta - would they have better bass than the Bronze 100?

That's part of the reason why I initially chose the Bronze 100, I live in a small condo so I've been hoping I can get away without a subwoofer out of fear of disturbing the neighbors (though I haven't gotten any complaints yet). However, I am aware of the benefits of a sub, so maybe eventually I'll cave in for one.
 

HarmonicTHD

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I thought the Bronze 100 had better-than-average bass (for bookshelves, anyway) due to their 8" woofers. Though, I was actually considering upgrading to the KEF R3 Meta - would they have better bass than the Bronze 100?

That's part of the reason why I initially chose the Bronze 100, I live in a small condo so I've been hoping I can get away without a subwoofer out of fear of disturbing the neighbors (though I haven't gotten any complaints yet). However, I am aware of the benefits of a sub, so maybe eventually I'll cave in for one.
I don’t know and I would have to look it up too. The R3 was measured by Erin and I am sure you can find some measurements on the Bronze too.

But again. There are simply physical limits. Plus if a speaker has elevated highs it can also contribute to the impression of lack of bass.

Meanwhile try to further boost bass with your EQ and see if it gets closer to what you like.
 
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LTig

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Sorry, I should have mentioned, I'm using a WiiM Amp, so unfortunately there's no way to EQ the channels separately (and I'm also limited to 4-band PEQ).
Then measure both speakers running and set the EQ according to this single curve.
 

ppataki

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there's no way to EQ the channels separately (and I'm also limited to 4-band PEQ).
If you are limited to 4 PEQs only for L+R then there is not much that can be done....
The only thing that you could do (and maybe you are already doing that) is to create a target curve with bass boost in REW and set the AutoEQ feature for 4 bands

1708070867138.png


1708070926642.png



1708070967822.png


Then REW will apply those 4 filters the best it can taking into account the elevated lows defined by the low shelf (you can play around with that to personal taste)
 

Pareto Pragmatic

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How is your center image? It sounds like there would be issues with that given the room.

You might try crossing the speakers in front of your listening position, that will make sidewall issues a bit less of a problem. So try that. Easy and free.

Very shallow toe might also work. So I suggest trying both crossing over in front, shallow toe in, and right at the center of the MLP. That will give you three options, with likely different problems. Bracket things, and then act on what you see.

Curtains will help, particularly if they are heavier and pleated.

Can the speakers come out a bit from the wall? More than they are now? Can the tv stand come out 6" more? Given a rear ported speaker, I would try that if possible.

A sub might help. I would suggest a small sealed front firing sub, crossed over pretty high. If you can take some of the energy out of the problematic speaker, that could help overall. But that would be my last choice.

Final option. Get some stands and put the speakers on those out in the room for serious listening, and just learn to love your punchy bass in the current position. Stands you can put out the way when not in use is my thought.

I like the speakers, I considered them very strongly for myself. But you might want something front ported, given you are sticking them close to a wall and one in a corner. So a return and trying a different speaker, that's a good option. Try what you can while you have them! But don't be afraid to try something else, there are options.
 

ahofer

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It’s possible to create L+R convolution filters in REW and import and run them in Roon (or, I think, Jriver and maybe other PC-based systems). I have an asymmetrical setup in one of my rooms and did the same.

Also, experiment with more aggressively toed-in positions to tame the nearest reflections from the wall on one side. Or even put something on the wall to diffuse/absorb them.
 
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wardzin

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UPDATE: I ended up returning the Bronze 100's and got R3 Metas instead. Massive difference! I know those are not really comparable in price, but I could afford them, and I figured I might as well jump straight into what I would consider my personal endgame.

Anyway, here are the charts for the R3 Meta:
1708563315119.png


Definitely much better-looking!

A few questions:
- What smoothing should I use for the EQ?
- Should I only be EQing the sub-300 frequencies, or the whole thing?
- If I'm using Harman as my target, I'm assuming I shouldn't be using be using the "Add room curve" option in REW?
 

kemmler3D

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UPDATE: I ended up returning the Bronze 100's and got R3 Metas instead. Massive difference! I know those are not really comparable in price, but I could afford them, and I figured I might as well jump straight into what I would consider my personal endgame.

Anyway, here are the charts for the R3 Meta:
View attachment 351430

Definitely much better-looking!

A few questions:
- What smoothing should I use for the EQ?
- Should I only be EQing the sub-300 frequencies, or the whole thing?
- If I'm using Harman as my target, I'm assuming I shouldn't be using be using the "Add room curve" option in REW?
If you are still using the WiiM for EQ, no smoothing. I wouldn't use smoothing for EQ at all, just averaging between multiple measurements - unless I was using FIR, in which case you'd want to use smoothing that corresponds to the frequency resolution of your convolver.

Only EQ below 300.

I think you will want to use a target curve in REW with elevated bass. But with just 4 bands, you might be able to dial it in manually.

Looking at these graphs, I think you could benefit a great deal from a sub or two, but you'd also maybe want DSP with more bands. That would let you fill in the dips in the bass and get a nice smooth response from 30hz (or lower) on up.

If you can afford the R3 Meta then I'd definitely consider adding those as well, or at least once your audio budget is replenished.
 
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wardzin

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Looking at these graphs, I think you could benefit a great deal from a sub or two, but you'd also maybe want DSP with more bands. That would let you fill in the dips in the bass and get a nice smooth response from 30hz (or lower) on up.

If you can afford the R3 Meta then I'd definitely consider adding those as well, or at least once your audio budget is replenished.
What would you use for DSP? I specifically got the WiiM Amp because I wanted something with an HDMI ARC port, but didn't want a big bulky AVR, which makes my options limited.
 

ppataki

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What would you use for DSP? I specifically got the WiiM Amp because I wanted something with an HDMI ARC port, but didn't want a big bulky AVR, which makes my options limited.
If your source is a computer (PC or Mac) you can use Jriver - that is the best DSP solution available AFAIK
I have been using that too for many years now - it is really great
 

ZolaIII

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UPDATE: I ended up returning the Bronze 100's and got R3 Metas instead. Massive difference! I know those are not really comparable in price, but I could afford them, and I figured I might as well jump straight into what I would consider my personal endgame.

Anyway, here are the charts for the R3 Meta:
View attachment 351430

Definitely much better-looking!

A few questions:
- What smoothing should I use for the EQ?
- Should I only be EQing the sub-300 frequencies, or the whole thing?
- If I'm using Harman as my target, I'm assuming I shouldn't be using be using the "Add room curve" option in REW?
Do the 90 Hz and 220 Hz peeks, leave the first one and adjust it to 76 dB (which by the way is target to lower mentioned peeks) Harman later if you must, use 4th PEQ to slope down the highs and that's pretty much what you can achieve with only 4 PEQ's.
 

ZolaIII

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Think in a pair, not just one if you could.
Pair of pair's and DSP is what you end up and that's very expensive for the sakes of cancelling room mode in bass. He can do it with a impulse response averting and cancelling of first three peeks and deaps with such a good response (in a small room) he is getting now of course that also means use of DSP or PC.RTA peak live 76 dB.jpg
Live RTA peak of my 2.2 setup.
 

kemmler3D

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What would you use for DSP? I specifically got the WiiM Amp because I wanted something with an HDMI ARC port, but didn't want a big bulky AVR, which makes my options limited.
Hmm, HDMI makes it tricky as there's no pre-out or anything like that on the WiiM Amp.

Personally I use a mini-PC, (c. $100) and I am thinking about swapping in a small dedicated DSP board with optical in/out. (c. $40) But if HDMI is required then you're looking at a MiniDSP Flex HT or something at $600 or so, which is taking a much bigger bite out of the budget.
 
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