How much do cables affect sound on IEM's and Headphones

[eeeper]

Not trying to stir up trouble since there are differing opinions on the topic. I'm trying to understand if something I recently experienced when I changed one of my IEM's cables could actually happen or is it my imagination, essentially looking for a sanity check. Background, recently bought the D50s and the Geshelli archel 2.5, have the Hidizs MS4 and FIIO F9 Pro. Being one who likes to tinker and explore, I bought a pair of KZ SZ10 Pro IEMs and a pair of TRN V80s to add to my collection. At first I didn't like the SZ10's, tremble seemed a little hot and mid-bass was fairly weak. Spent the good part of a week trying different sets of eartips on each IEM and finally found tips that increased my enjoyment of all, especially the SZ10's whose sound moved closer to what I expected, bass improved, tremble softened slightly to a listenable level.

Here is where it gets strange, I bought my wife a pair of Hidiz Rainbow MS1s and converted the to bluetooth. While I was doing my morning listening routine, turned off the amp and DAC off, and for kicks I took the cable from the MS1 IEMs and put them on my KZS10 Pros, a great upgrade since the stock tangle easy and not very long. Turned on the DAC,AMP, played the same song had I just listened to with the KZ's and stock cable. I sat stunned, mid-bass appeared to improve, vocals were more present and cymbals were clearer. First thought, "Couldn't be the cables, something else changed." So I went through everything and found nothing had changed, everything was as it were before I swapped.

I'm baffled, and after reading a few different forum discussions on the subject some say it does make a difference when going from single headed to balanced, but a straight swap from one single ended to another shouldn't make a difference - should it?

Thanks in advance.

 

[solderdude]

You can measure the resistance of each wire.
With low impedance earphones a bit of (contact) resistance may be a problem.
When the cable is split (3 wire up to the split) this can matter.

Try to redo the test but have someone else swap cables randomly to make sure it isn't you knowing what cable is in there.

 

[Jimbob54]

Not trying to stir up trouble since there are differing opinions on the topic. I'm trying to understand if something I recently experienced when I changed one of my IEM's cables could actually happen or is it my imagination, essentially looking for a sanity check. Background, recently bought the D50s and the Geshelli archel 2.5, have the Hidizs MS4 and FIIO F9 Pro. Being one who likes to tinker and explore, I bought a pair of KZ SZ10 Pro IEMs and a pair of TRN V80s to add to my collection. At first I didn't like the SZ10's, tremble seemed a little hot and mid-bass was fairly weak. Spent the good part of a week trying different sets of eartips on each IEM and finally found tips that increased my enjoyment of all, especially the SZ10's whose sound moved closer to what I expected, bass improved, tremble softened slightly to a listenable level.

Here is where it gets strange, I bought my wife a pair of Hidiz Rainbow MS1s and converted the to bluetooth. While I was doing my morning listening routine, turned off the amp and DAC off, and for kicks I took the cable from the MS1 IEMs and put them on my KZS10 Pros, a great upgrade since the stock tangle easy and not very long. Turned on the DAC,AMP, played the same song had I just listened to with the KZ's and stock cable. I sat stunned, mid-bass appeared to improve, vocals were more present and cymbals were clearer. First thought, "Couldn't be the cables, something else changed." So I went through everything and found nothing had changed, everything was as it were before I swapped.

I'm baffled, and after reading a few different forum discussions on the subject some say it does make a difference when going from single headed to balanced, but a straight swap from one single ended to another shouldn't make a difference - should it?

Thanks in advance.

An obvious question, but are you sure you put the volume back in exactly the same place when you switched amp back on? If you were at 12 o clock, pretty easy - but if at 9.30, 10, 11- on a lot its so hard to pick the same level.

 

[eeeper]

You can measure the resistance of each wire.
With low impedance earphones a bit of (contact) resistance may be a problem.
When the cable is split (3 wire up to the split) this can matter.

Try to redo the test but have someone else swap cables randomly to make sure it isn't you knowing what cable is in there.

Haven't tried having someone swamping cables but was able to test resistance. The MS1 cable has half the resistance. I'm going to try another meter to verify but that seems be what is going on.

KZ SZ10 pro

• Impedance: 24 ohms.
• Sensitivity: 111 dB.

Hidiz MS1 rainbows
- 112 db
- 20 ohms

 

[eeeper]

An obvious question, but are you sure you put the volume back in exactly the same place when you switched amp back on? If you were at 12 o clock, pretty easy - but if at 9.30, 10, 11- on a lot its so hard to pick the same level.

I have a headphone jack extension cable that I unplugged the IEM from without changing the volume knob or DAC level out, essentially swapping it out "live" so there wasn't any possiblity of anything changing without me noticing.

 

[Speedskater]

For reasonable headphones and reasonable cables with everything in good condition (especially the contact points) it's highly doubtful that there will be audible differences. But there can be mechanical differences like flexibility and comfortable feel.

 

[solderdude]

Haven't tried having someone swamping cables but was able to test resistance. The MS1 cable has half the resistance. I'm going to try another meter to verify but that seems be what is going on.

KZ SZ10 pro

• Impedance: 24 ohms.
• Sensitivity: 111 dB.

Hidiz MS1 rainbows
- 112 db

MA can have wildly varying impedances which will change the sound when wire/contact resistance becomes higher (voltage division)
measuring actual cable resistance is tricky with a multimeter.

 

[Bob-23]

A valid A-B-comparison has not only to be done 'blindly' and volume-matched but also by instantaneously switching, using a switch box - plugging-in and -out takes too long, our accoustic memory is much, much shorter than one tends to think.

 

[solderdude]

Then this will show itself as 'guessing'
The good thing about swapping cables only is that it is level matched by definition unless the cables differ so much in resistance it reaches repeatable levels.
When differences are as obvious as stated and the cable is the difference this should be very audible.

 

[Bob-23]

Yes, when differences are huge, swapping works - but I have some doubts if they really are - despite Op's statement. But the proof of the pudding is the eating: Unless he tries it out we won't know.

 

[eeeper]

Yes, when differences are huge, swapping works - but I have some doubts if they really are - despite Op's statement. But the proof of the pudding is the eating: Unless he tries it out we won't know.

I didn't get a chance to do the test with my wife swapping the cables yet, hopefully will be able to do it tonight. As @Bob-23 pointed out even the 20 second time to swap IEMs can futz with audio memory which is I'm happy you all are giving suggestions to do a valid test. Whenever I come across something that goes against my current understanding of a topic I like to find out why. Whether a cable in this case made a difference or not, is a secondary outcome, my primary desire is to deepen my knowledge - and this question has helped me to understand more about what affects sound quality with your suggestions and the research I've done. thanks for all the suggestions, keep them coming.

 

[eeeper]

Yes, when differences are huge, swapping works - but I have some doubts if they really are - despite Op's statement. But the proof of the pudding is the eating: Unless he tries it out we won't know.

Just to clarify, in my enthusiasm my explanation may of sounded like a bigger change than it was, like going from a 4cylinder to a 8cylinder. It wasn't that massive of a change, more that it surprised me that things I hadn't heard earlier were now present and the sound signature was different enough to cause notice, so more of going from a 1.5 liter 4 cylinder to a 2.0 or 2.5 liter 4 cylinder, not super noticeable in most cases. I hope that helps.

 

[solderdude]

but I have some doubts if they really are - despite Op's statement.

Agreed fully.
My hunch is that when he makes 20 'attempts' where the wife 'randomly' (so she may be faking changing cables and in reality plug in the same cable a few times in a row) and the listener has to 'asses' qualities of the sound and write down his guess what cable was connected and later compared notes it would be weird if the outcome would not be between 40 and 60% correct.

It is important that there are no clues for the listener so no peaking, no feeling what cable dangles on your shoulders/body and after each 'listening/evaluation' the plugs on both headphone and amp must always be pulled. A cable selected (randomly or by flipping a coin) and plugged in and handed so it is impossible to feel what cable is used.
Messing up one of these aspects will surely mean the test is not valid.

 

[eeeper]

Agreed fully.
My hunch is that when he makes 20 'attempts' where the wife 'randomly' (so she may be faking changing cables and in reality plug in the same cable a few times in a row) and the listener has to 'asses' qualities of the sound and write down his guess what cable was connected and later compared notes it would be weird if the outcome would not be between 40 and 60% correct.

It is important that there are no clues for the listener so no peaking, no feeling what cable dangles on your shoulders/body and after each 'listening/evaluation' the plugs on both headphone and amp must always be pulled. A cable selected (randomly or by flipping a coin) and plugged in and handed so it is impossible to feel what cable is used.
Messing up one of these aspects will surely mean the test is not valid.

Sorry, didn't get that elaborate but did have an interesting time testing and instead of my wife my daughter was intrigued enough to help administer the experiment.

I had my eyes closed, she swapped IEM's on the different cables, put them into my ears and hit play. Then at a preset stopping point she pulled them out and repeated. I never "felt" the cables or saw them and had no idea which ones they were. Used Led Zepplin dazed and confused 24/48 off amazon music through the hidiz s8 dac off my samsung s9+ phone.

Second experiment was even more fun, I did the same for my daughter who chose her own song Battlefield by Svrcina, and the same methodology. Since she had never heard the song before on any of the equipment it would come down to her ears and perceptions uncluttered by my bias.

Results:
I was able to pick out the different cables. My daughter was able to distinguish the difference too.

My daughter's impression - MS1 cable - echoey feeling, wide open feeling, slight crackling sound (after I listened, it was an instrument with a metallic sound) Stock cable - more of a crackling sound where bass should have been, less open sound, didn't get the "wow this is spacious" sound.

Not what I expected, but its a result that makes me think the stock cable is bad. I think I might try testing that cable on my ms4 IEM's, and throw in the stock trn v80 cable to make it interesting.

Thank you all for the input, it's been a fun experiment and discussion.

 

[Asylum Seeker]

Yeah, I would take manufacturer specs with a sack of salt... Let's assume that there can be differences. Something that annoys me to no end is the complete disregard or care for knowing why and how something sounds different. Instead the cable-ists just go on silly flights of fancy and start recommending this and that. Just a important as knowing that something is good or better is knowing why it is good or better.

 

[eeeper]

Yeah, I would take manufacturer specs with a sack of salt... Let's assume that there can be differences. Something that annoys me to no end is the complete disregard or care for knowing why and how something sounds different. Instead the cable-ists just go on silly flights of fancy and start recommending this and that. Just a important as knowing that something is good or better is knowing why it is good or better.

I agree. That is the reason I did the experiment, to first confirm the phenomenon I had observed and now I have the fun trying to figure out why. Tried the cables off my trn v80, they are almost identical cables to the sz10 pro's. After a quick listen - the outcome makes more sense to me, the stock cables on the szs are bad. Doing a quick listen to the stock trn vs ms1 was as I expected, too close to tell and would end up guessing in the end.

So there was a difference but I suspect the cable itself is bad and that makes me feel much better. I have no idea how to confirm that theory but it's the best I have.

 

[solderdude]

Results:
I was able to pick out the different cables. My daughter was able to distinguish the difference too.

My daughter's impression - MS1 cable - echoey feeling, wide open feeling, slight crackling sound (after I listened, it was an instrument with a metallic sound) Stock cable - more of a crackling sound where bass should have been, less open sound, didn't get the "wow this is spacious" sound.

Not what I expected, but its a result that makes me think the stock cable is bad. I think I might try testing that cable on my ms4 IEM's, and throw in the stock trn v80 cable to make it interesting.

Thank you all for the input, it's been a fun experiment and discussion.

The first question that pops up is how many attempts were made ? How random was it.

Also what would be interesting to know is what the resistance and build-up is from the cable.
I know the 2 different cables supplied with the AQ nighthawk have been built with a different resistance on purpose so cables are ensured to make an audible difference (AQ is a cable seller primarily).
It also is around 23 Ohm.

To me it would be interesting to find the cause. I am not very surprised differences can be found but only originate from resistance differences.

When you measure them measure 'roundtrip' resistance, so short the pins that go in the IEM and measure between sleeve and tip (or ring)
Roundtrip resistance of both cables was 1 Ohm and 3.2Ohm.
Because the cable was wire the difference was audible.

 

[Asylum Seeker]

The thing is, though, that if the only difference is Resistance with no Reactance component, the only audible change should be Volume. Now, Volume affects how the relative perception of frequencies so you need to account for that.

 

[solderdude]

Not when there also is a common return wire.
In the case of IEM's this is unlikely though. The usual concept is 4 wires where 2 of them are connected in the plug.
Amplitude differences of 1dB are enough to solicit a percieved change.
One has to take into account that these are MA IEM's that usually have wildly and substantially varying impedances all over the audible band.

Inductance and capacitance of a headphone cable are not high enough to change anything in the audible band.

 

[solderdude]

Multi Armature

In other words multiple drivers often with crossovers.
Below an example (can't access innerfidelity a.t.m. it seems down) so a screenshot from google.
It shows a 28 Ohm driver with an impedance swinging between 18 and 84 Ohm in the range between 500Hz and 8kHz.