Theatres are calibrated(assuming it's done properly) but they can still change the Dolby scale volume control, and they do. It is pretty well documented that there are ongoing conflicts between what theatres set the volume to and how loud the content is. What it boils down to is the way the director wants their film to sound and the way the audience prefers to hear it are not necessarily the same.
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How loud is loud, how to measure it? Is THX calibration bad for your health?
- Thread starter sarumbear
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Yeah that's fair enough, he's perfectly allowed to ask! I have no issue with it, so long as it's not too persistent; there are many good reasons why we can't oblige.
I'm kinda done with this thread though I think, as I don't have much more to contribute.
Maybe I should just describe the outline of a system *I* would implent if an SPL cap were the goal, since "85" hasn't worked out so well, haha:
I personally don't think applying limits purely in terms of dBfs at the mix is the solution. That's only like saying the SPL limit needs to be 16 bit. It means nothing in the real world and dBfs is a poor measurement of loudness to begin with.
It would need regulation in the mix AND the cinemas.
IMHO it would need to be done in loudness terms (LUFS or similar) to achieve some sort of standardisation of maximum levels on the recording while avoiding a loudness wars situation where limiters are over used, which takes so much life out of everything.
Then, since in decades of film sound no one's been able to *actually* standardise replay level, at the replay end of the chain there should be a cap measured in dBC (or dBwhatever) for the cinema.
Thus, we would deliver mixes with a repeatable maximum loudness on the track, and cinemas could set a replay level for their room according to decibel limits. Crucially, it would be quite repeatable film to film, so they wouldn't need to test every title.
There would, however, still probably need to be some margin for error (either upward or downward from spec) as every seat in the house is different, and which the loudest is seat may be content dependent.
There'd probably need to be fines payable by law both for production and exhibition for exceeding the limit, otherwise films, and definitely advertising, would likely not comply unilaterally.
As to what the SPL limit should be.....? Who knows. (In the future someone could find there's no 100% safe level that's enjoyable. If it turns out 60dB for 0.1seconds is damaging if you go to the cinema every day and live to be 120, what do you do then?)
But, this is all irrelevant. It's what I might do, not what's actually gonna happen.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #263
Possibly. However, do you think that is a high price for an almost class 2 SPL meter with dosimeter, all in your pocket?
Soundmixer
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Much like the consumer can change their volume control, so can theaters regardless of the mastering levels.
My point to "that who shall not be named" is you cannot blame the mixing engineers for what theaters or consumers are doing in their theaters. While I stick to a "standard" mastering level in my studio, I don't always stick to a certain volume level in my home theaters.
The control of the reproduction levels in commercial (or home) theaters has no relationship to the mastering level or standards that are set for production levels. Conflating the two shows a lack of knowledge of the production and the reproduction chain.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #266
No they can't. They will loose their Dolby certification. I am surprised that someone with a username: soundmixer didn't know that.
Dolby typically certifies studios to mix in Dolby Atmos, not cinemas.
the entity that actually (commonly) certifies cinemas is IMAX. To my knowledge there is not a single Dolby Cinema in Belgium for example, while i'm a walking distance from an IMAX one.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #268
That used to be the case. Since the launch of first Dolby Atmos and then Dolby Cinema in Europe that is no longer the case. I am surprised you don't have any Dolby Cinemas in Belgium, Netherlands being the first location almost a decade ago!
Dolby Cinema - Dolby
Dolby Cinema elevates the movie experience with the vivid colors of Dolby Vision and the spatial sound of Dolby Atmos. Find new releases at theaters near you.
Dolby Cinema - Wikipedia
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I don't think it's as successful as you assume it is, all major movies are still mixed for IMAX cinemas.That used to be the case. Since the launch of first Dolby Atmos and then Dolby Cinema in Europe that is no longer the case. I am surprised you don't have any Dolby Cinemas in Belgium, Netherlands being the first location almost a decade ago!
Dolby Cinema - Dolby
Dolby Cinema elevates the movie experience with the vivid colors of Dolby Vision and the spatial sound of Dolby Atmos. Find new releases at theaters near you.www.dolby.com
Dolby Cinema - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The IMAX Experience
The World’s Most Immersive Film Experience—IMAX connects audiences worldwide to cinema’s most visionary filmmakers and creatives through innovative technologies and premium, immersive entertainment experiences.
www.imax.com
OP
- Thread Starter
- #270
You may live in the capital of European Union but I have news for you that there is big world out there.
I already show you the number, but for some reason you ignore the data.
There are now more than 6000 Dolby Atmos cinemas in the world in 90 countries. There is really no comparison with IMAX even if you include the false IMAX theatres that offer standard 2K projection (shameful exercise but we are already OT).
You did not show me any number by the way. neither of the links you shared state that there are more Dolby Cinemas out there than IMAX cinemas.
Also it's a tough selling point when the new Spider man movie, the new matrix movie, and the new Beatles movie are all mastered for IMAX. Heck even Disney+ is offering IMAX mixes now.
Is it easier or more difficult to find a Dolby Cinema in your area vs an IMAX?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #272
Do please read my posts. I explained that the precursor to Dolby Cinema is Dolby Atmos of which there are 6000 of, considerably more than IMAX. Dolby Cinema is a new brand name started in 2015 and so far available only in Europe. There are already 250 of them, 200 were in the works before Covid hit. Are there 250 IMAX theatres in Europe?
If you will still argue against numbers I will not responding. If you have anything else to say I am listening.
I don't think a cinema needs to be certified to play Dolby Atmos content.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #274
You think wrong. Dolby does not allow the name Atmos to be used in the cinema marketing material if the cinema is not certified by them. I personally know a case where they sued a smaller chain here in UK. The chain coughed up. Dolby earns good money from certification.
Soundmixer
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Ummmmmm..sorry, but Dolby does not certify every theater, only their own branded theaters. The only theaters they know where the volume control is set are in their own branded theaters. Dolby does not have a certification program outside of their own branded theaters, so I accept your apology for your attempted insult.
Soundmixer
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It doesn't. The only thing you need is the Atmos decoder and the speakers. Dolby only certifies Dolby Cinemas, and at this point, AMC has most of them in their US chain.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #277
Apology should be from you to me on wasting time or total lack of knowledge of the industry. Dolby does not own theatres. They license their technology. The brand on theatres are Dolby’s trademarks that they may allow the theatres to use if they allow their technicians to test and calibrate their sound system. There are 6000 Atmos certified theatres in the world, obviously that is not every theatre in existence.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #278
It does in UK. I know it for a fact.
Soundmixer
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Actually, you are incorrect. Any theater that buys an Atmos decoder and sets up the speaker in the proper places can play Atmos. Dolby Cinemas are the only theaters certified by Dolby. Dolby does NOT certify non-Dolby branded theaters.
And also let's clear up your misunderstanding of the Dolby suit. Dolby's suit had nothing to do with Atmos, it had to do with patent licensing violations attributed to their video server technology, not their audio products.
Soundmixer
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That license does not include control of the volume unless it is a Dolby Cinema. Atmos certification is a completely different certification than Dolby Cinema. Atmos certification just says the theater is correctly aligned to properly reproduce Atmos. Monitoring that theater is a paid OPTION not a demand by Dolby. Dolby has absolutely no control over the volume level of any individual theater. Dolby Cinemas on the other hand are monitored directly by DOLBY (it is a requirement), and therefore they know exactly how loud a movie is being played in that theater. You apparently don't know the differences between certifications, or how they actually work!
You are conflating to different things out of ignorance of both. So no apology for you, the devil is in the details.
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