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How loud is loud, how to measure it? Is THX calibration bad for your health?

It bears repeating this message, if only to save someone else from destroying their hearing. 115 dB peaks in my opinion are about 10 dB too high. It’s cumulative damage. Think of it like new tires on your car. Watching a loud movie is like doing burnouts and donuts. Do enough of them and…..except you can’t just go buy new ears/hearing. Calibrate to 75 dB and save your hearing.
I agree that we should check how loud we listen to movie soundtracks and music. However, cumulative in this case would be continuous exposure within a tight time frame, and over and over again. Film soundtracks have peaks and valleys, and there is no long-term exposure to high levels continuously within the film. You also don't get a continuous level (except with perhaps the dialog), the level is always vacillating between loud and soft, and everything in between.

If I were using a jackhammer on a construction site or working on an airport tarmac, then this would constitute a danger to my hearing because of the continuous exposure to loud sound for extended periods of time. Hence why these workers use hearing protection as a requirement. These folks are exposed to sounds in access of 115-130dbs continuously. I don't really think the burnout and donuts analogy really applies to film soundtracks, but it most certainly does to live music. Live music has a continuous level coming through the PA system, and often that level is too loud.

Your last bit of advice is sage for sure.
 
i wish i can warn myself of the dangers of universal pictures sensurround that was unhealthy with non-stop 120dB for 120mins
The sensurround effect on all of the five movies it was used on did not last 120 minutes even when if the total effect time was combined together. The effect was used for 17 minutes spread out over 5 scenes in Earthquake, only with Airplane engines and gun blasts in Midway, for 13 minutes in Rollercoaster, and only with spaceship engines in Galactica. I am pretty sure this would not be considered unhealthy considering most of the sound was subsonic(felt) rather than heard. Some people did feel some ill effects, but most of the real damage was done to some theaters rather than their patrons.
 
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Well, having high frequencies scream at me @105dB THX levels isn't that much better. Probably a little safer but it would still make me reach for the volume knob immediately. :D
105dB is unsafe unhealthy with these soundmixer people mixing at deafening unsafe for a deafening 'no time to die' for constant 165mins is unhealthy unsafe dB listening. time now to put these soundmxiers levels with dynamic audio compressor switched onto High!
got be careful HF horns at cinemas can do hearing damage and levels have increased to unsafe levels with this rubbish atmos soundmixes doing deafening levels! Proves nothing other than a noisy filmmixers mix.
 
105dB is unsafe unhealthy with these soundmixer people mixing at deafening unsafe for a deafening 'no time to die' for constant 165mins is unhealthy unsafe dB listening.
Sigh....Sound Mixers do not control the volume button in individual theaters, and no movie I have ever heard has 105db continuous level for 165 minutes. Your statement here is inaccurate hyperbole on steroids.

Question....did you watch this movie with an SPL meter in the air the entire movie?

Asking for a friend.....
 
Blaming the messenger... No sound mixer I know or have read mixes at 105 dB, more like 70~80 dB, and like any source material (CD, movie, whatever) the final volume is set by the venue (you at home or the guy in the theater) and not the mixing/mastering engineer. I have noticed a trend in some local theaters for the volume to be turned way up, perhaps they feel somebody likes it that way, and have greatly reduced attendance as a result. I can set the level at home to where it is reasonable. BTW, a word to the theater may help, as sometimes they have relatively untrained people who do not realize just how loud the sound is "on the floor". A friend of mine went so far as to bring a sound level meter, record the peak levels for a movie, and show them to the manager who had no idea it was that loud.

Edit: @Soundmixer beat me to it, and more concisely...
 
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105dB is unsafe unhealthy with these soundmixer people mixing at deafening unsafe for a deafening 'no time to die' for constant 165mins is unhealthy unsafe dB listening. time now to put these soundmxiers levels with dynamic audio compressor switched onto High!
got be careful HF horns at cinemas can do hearing damage and levels have increased to unsafe levels with this rubbish atmos soundmixes doing deafening levels! Proves nothing other than a noisy filmmixers mix.
You need to complain to your theater.
 
105dB is unsafe unhealthy with these soundmixer people mixing at deafening unsafe for a deafening 'no time to die' for constant 165mins is unhealthy unsafe dB listening.
Well, lets stay realistic here: while some movies do have extended action scenes that are loud for quite some time, most of the movie's length consists of dialog and is much, much quieter.
 
I am an electroacoustics engineer. We are a rare breed. When I got my M.Sc. my class of six were the only ones in UK. I am now retired from engineering and audio is my hobby. You can find more about me on the about page on my profile.

The behaviour of the sound (acoustics) and how we hear it are very complex to formulate. We are dealing with the physical and the physiological, and at the interaction is our brain. We should not assign objective values to what we experience. They are not solid repeatable values. There are no Precision Instruments, nor Klippel to objectively measure how we hear. Add the complexity of music as the source material and it becomes impossible to formulate the sound coming from a speaker in a domestic environment with any precision. Think of this if you plan to read further. What I am about to explain is not objective but also not subjective. It is based on my knowledge that has been accumulated during 50 years as either an electroacoustic engineer, a recording engineer, a speaker manufacturer, and a Hi-Fi hobbyist.

How loud is loud?

When we hear a sound, depending on where we are, what mood we are in, what age we are, etc., we judge the sound level as low, normal, high, etc. Human physiology psychology confuses our perception of sound levels. What we complain of to be very loud one day can be perceived as pretty normal the next day. Our hearing system is inherently auto levelling anyway but our brain plays tricks on how we perceive levels. Sitting alone in a room the sound level of a club dancefloor is unbearable but we do not complain about it when we are dancing for hours. This is not dissimilar to how we perceive changes between brightness levels. But unlike our eyes, high sound levels permanently damage our hearing. (Extreme brightness is known to damage eyes but it is almost impossible that we experience such high brightness levels in our daily life.)

There are two aspects of defining loud. One is for short periods and the other is accumulated dose. Short periods, of a few seconds are measured with a Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter. Accumulation is measured by a Sound Dosimeter. It is the latter that almost all audio hobbyist are unaware of and it is lack of the latter that caused many 70s rock stars to become deaf.

How to measure it?

The sound pressure (P) is the average variation in atmospheric pressure caused by the sound. The unit of pressure measurement is pascal (Pa). Sound pressure level (SPL) is the pressure level of a sound, measured in decibels (dB). It is equal to 20 x the Log10 of the ratio of the Route Mean Square (RMS) of sound pressure to the reference of sound pressure (the reference sound pressure in air is 2 x 10-5 N/m2, or 0,00002 Pa). Or, in other words is the ratio of the absolute sound pressure against a reference level of sound in the air.

Naturally, the purpose of measuring sound is not only for music. If we are measuring noise, it makes sense to apply a filter on the type of frequency range it has as our hearing has different sensitivity at different frequencies. (Remember the Fletcher Munson curve?) Those filters are named A, B & C. dBSPLA is the most used as it is the industry standard to define how noisy any environment is. For measuring the level of music playing we should not apply any filter. Music has the same range as our hearing system is designed for. Any filter will skew our readings.

SPL meters used to be prohibitively expensive for a hobbyist or so cheap that they were nothing but toys. This has changed with smartphone apps and modern devices, iPhone especially. Huge scale manufacturing and software calibration allowed an iPhone by itself to almost reach Class 2 classification (2dB tolerance suitable for everyday use outside a lab). This level of error is more than satisfactory for hobbyist’s needs. Do not take my word for it, read the conclusion reached by the US CDC.

My favourite app is called SPLnFFT. It is iPhone only. You can find it at the Apple App Store. Have I told you that it is free? It is incredible that such a powerful and elegant app is given away.

Will it affect my health?

THX standard says that at reference level (-20dBFS, the broadcast/professional reference level) a Pink Noise should generate 85dBSPL at the audience position. As you can see from the simple chart below this means the theatre's sound system is expected to produce 115dBSPL without audible distortion.

View attachment 173259

Let’s fire SPLnFFT app and start playing some soundtracks at the 95dBSPL average level. (Don’t try Pink Noise as it will be an unbearable experience.) This is what your app screen should look like.
EDIT:
Here are two 12 minutes samples of the Dolby Pro encoded stereo track of the films Team America World Police (2004) on the left and Dune (2021) on the right. You can clearly see that the soundtrack is routinely above the reference level and often stays at 10dB above, which is 95dBSPL.

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View attachment 173398

The circles are at 10dB increments and the green to yellow transition is at -20dB LKFS. Measured with TC Electronics Loudness Meter.
EDIT ENDS

View attachment 173098

95dBSPL: Very noisy, exposure time should be limited to less than 2.5 hours
. And, you are already in amber for the dose of sound your body can handle.

This is at 95dBSPL average level. Imagine what will your body feel when you increase the level by 20dB to reach the peaks in the soundtrack?

If going to the cinema is bad for your health how come nobody talks about this. Well, a lot of people talk about it in the industry. Many theatres have overridden the calibrated levels of their sound systems because people were complaining. The main reason no action is taken is because we go to a cinema rarely. A frequent moviegoer is defined as someone who goes to the cinema once a month. But is that the same when you have a home theatre? What is the point of having a home theatre if you are going to use it just once a month, after all?

As far I can see, and I hope someone will show me that I am wrong, watching films at THX levels frequently can be bad for your health.

Let us try music instead. Many posters on ASR talk about listening to music at an average level of 85dBSPL. This what I see while playing IGY by Donald Fagen (Opening track of the Nightfly Album.)

View attachment 173105

85dBSPL: Too loud, exposure time limited. How long do you listen to music a day? Am I risking my health? I’m afraid all the medical studies available point us to the one answer: yes, you are. 85dB average dBSPL is too loud for enjoying music.

I hope I added something to the great cumulative knowledge of ASR. Feel free to ask questions, but please stay on topic. For instance don’t ask me why I used the Nightfly album. Well if you must; because it was once called "one of pop music's sneakiest masterpieces," which I totally agree.

A member has posted this video on page 15. I copied it here for your information.


I think when look movies is dangerous for hearing too at this level, but it is not so much dangerous as heaer music so loud because on movies there are more time lower 90 db as in music. most risc for hearing is with headphone.

the values how long your ears can survive are show in db(A) db(A) do not recognize much bass and much height. so it show in music i notice 4-5 db less values than db(C). db(c) is in theory more the stress the ears get.

I search long for a headphone amp that show level and cost not much. only i find for a good price (around 50$ ) and features was behringer miniamp amp800. it have 5 led lights from -24 to 0 db. It have 2 stereo inputs with input level control and input level meter so i can use it with output 1 2 (from soundcard) for my speaker and with output 3 4 for headphone. I need this because speaker and headphone need diffrent eq correction. so i can avoid switch eq between use of headphones or speakers

with this amp you can measure once how loud thx should be and set input value so that THX Level is 0 db. then you can reduce the level until you think it is loud enough and save your ears.

I connect my active speakers over a adpater cable to the headphone output too. i measure it and work linear. I use a ifi defender+ to kill USB noise because i have then no symetrical output. Output level knob is set to 9 o clock. and with the input i control the level. same need also do with in ear headphones because they are so loud that the output level not show -24 db. so i can with the amp800 see my speaker and headphone levels.

this headphone amp bring also new life into my AKG K1000 because it can go more than 6 db louder as my 9 volt focusrite scarlet 8i6o interface. the K1000 reach with the scarlet only 72 db (C) with music. with the amp800 it reach 79 db(C) and peak 101 db. i measure with spl meter in rew. 72 db is not loud enough for me but 79 db sounds loud and great for me

if i can suggest this amp i did not know i have it only since some weeks. my focusrite scarlet get pot crackle after 3 months because i increase and reduce often volume, because when not own music hear is lots diffrent in volume. same crackle problem i get with a presonus ar8 mixer too. so in dezember i can tell if the text on the package is true. High quality Potentiometers and illuminated switches for long term reliability.

ahm now i have written many text.
The short message is. WE NEED MORE GOOD PRICE AMPS WITH LEVELMETER TO GET LONGER LIFE OF EARS

and the funny thing level meters from t racks or other in 19 inch rack case are only eye candy. they have measure errors over 20 db and ignore many frequencies. the amp800 is good
 
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The short message is. WE NEED MORE GOOD PRICE AMPS WITH LEVELMETER TO GET LONGER LIFE OF EARS
I certainly agree with the sentiment but how can a level meter on an amplifier reflect the SPL reaching the ear when headphone sensitivity between models are wildly different?

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Not to mention (so I shall) speaker sensitivity, distance to listener, and room gain (or not) when not using headphones. And of course meters usually provide an average output though peak-reading meters are available. The you have to decide how fast a peak to capture, how long to save it, etc.

Long ago I had a cheap little electret mic with a preamp and RMS circuit built in a small box calibrated for measuring SPL levels. A cheap SPL meter will do it these days, albeit not accurate in the deep bass or highest highs.
 
I certainly agree with the sentiment but how can a level meter on an amplifier reflect the SPL reaching the ear when headphone sensitivity between models are wildly different?

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you need once every speaker or headphone measure with a sound level meter with microphone at ear position speaker or headphone. cost around 30 $ or a app for the handy to calibrate it. hold the sound level meter microphone at headphone hear distance and play music. then increase volume as much that it show on the level meter of the amp only sometimes 0 db and not clip LED. now read the output of the sound level meter. when for this headphone sound level meter show 90 db at 0 db. then you know when - 12 db light sometimes you reach 78 db and you are enough away from ear critical value.

sure it is not perfect because this amp only have a led every 6 db. but it is much much better than measure nothing. you also learn how loud music should be that it sound great for you.
 
Not to mention (so I shall) speaker sensitivity, distance to listener, and room gain (or not) when not using headphones. And of course meters usually provide an average output though peak-reading meters are available. The you have to decide how fast a peak to capture, how long to save it, etc.

Long ago I had a cheap little electret mic with a preamp and RMS circuit built in a small box calibrated for measuring SPL levels. A cheap SPL meter will do it these days, albeit not accurate in the deep bass or highest highs.

the db values for hear loss are db A i think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter
 
the db values for hear loss are db A i think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter
You can find data for absolute SPL which are independent of the weighting. OSHA has various standards though the most common are based upon A weighting, which mimics the sensitivity of most people (rolling off highs and lows). But data exists for lower and higher frequencies (I have tables buried at home, someplace...)

Most inexpensive SPL meters have A and C weighting; C rolls off below 30 Hz and above <I forget>. There is a Wikipedia article on weighting curves (search for A weighting and it should get you there).

I always caution folk that OSHA standards are meant to ensure most people will be able to follow normal conversation after long exposure, not that they will have no loss.
 
... I always caution folk that OSHA standards are meant to ensure most people will be able to follow normal conversation after long exposure, not that they will have no loss.
This note is worth repeating in bold face, because IME it is not well known. Most musicians & audiophiles that I know believe that staying below the OSHA or NIOSH standards will preserve their hearing. That is not true.
 
You can find data for absolute SPL which are independent of the weighting. OSHA has various standards though the most common are based upon A weighting, which mimics the sensitivity of most people (rolling off highs and lows). But data exists for lower and higher frequencies (I have tables buried at home, someplace...)

I only find the db A values. db A is 100 hz - 19 db 60 hz -26 db. so frequency below 400 hz have very few influence on measure. please post a link if you find this for db (c) . question is does use of much bass decrease hearing time and how much

for example here


Gas-powered lawnmowers and leaf blowers80-85Damage to hearing possible after 2 hours of exposure
Motorcycle95Damage to hearing possible after about 50 minutes of exposure
Approaching subway train, car horn at 16 feet (5 meters), and sporting events (such as hockey playoffs and football games)100Hearing loss possible after 15 minutes
The maximum volume level for personal listening devices; a very loud radio, stereo, or television; and loud entertainment venues (such as nightclubs, bars, and rock concerts)105–110Hearing loss possible in less than 5 minutes
Shouting or barking in the ear110Hearing loss possible in less than 2 minutes
Standing beside or near sirens120Pain and ear injury
Firecrackers140–150Pain and ear injur
 
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This note is worth repeating in bold face, because IME it is not well known. Most musicians & audiophiles that I know believe that staying below the OSHA or NIOSH standards will preserve their hearing. That is not true.

it is all not perfect nobody can test a human 3 hours or more over 2 years that hear 90 db. also humans are diffrent. hearing loss happen not only to hear higher frequency. have a level meter help to see how loud you hear. because after longer loud hear often feel that it is not so loud as at the time when wake up. It seem the first loss in hearing is the abiltity to hear Interauraul time delay (ITD) to locate sound sources below 800 hz. see hear tests for this. hear loss in ITD is known as cocktail party effect. people that can not hear ITD have problems to understand a voice(they ewant follow) when more people speak in a room at diffrent positions at same time

this also explain wy many people like dirac room correction. I can hear ITD but i think the dirac results sound very bad in range 80-400 hz. I examine closer wy this happen. When the dirac EQ is measure there can see alot large group delay changes diffrence between left and right channel.

I look that in the range of 100-300 hz(where i need reduce level 6 db ) very few eq is use. dirac and other reduce this frequency 8 db . this give large group delay changes. phase linear filter help a little but because of pre ring can also not optimal.

a measure and correct of speaker do also protect the ears because many rooms have lots of boost in 100-300 hz range

this are my EQ settings with t racks mini dsp and group delay from EQ measure(without speaker) . i hear clear that it sound much better as dirac in compare with headphone

bandicam 2022-05-16 15-34-31-068.jpg


here is dirac group delay
group delay dirac .jpg


this is a song and the pads sound with dirac strange and muddy.



sonarworks(newest version) is better but still sound not so good for ITD as my EQ setting

group delay sonarworks.jpg



and this is arc 2.5 (they use audisys)

group delay arc 2.5.jpg
 
it is all not perfect nobody can test a human 3 hours or more over 2 years that hear 90 db. also humans are diffrent. hearing loss happen not only to hear higher frequency. have a level meter help to see how loud you hear. because after longer loud hear often feel that it is not so loud as at the time when wake up. It seem the first loss in hearing is the abiltity to hear Interauraul time delay (ITD) to locate sound sources below 800 hz. see hear tests for this. hear loss in ITD is known as cocktail party effect. people that can not hear ITD have problems to understand a voice(they ewant follow) when more people speak in a room at diffrent positions at same time

this also explain wy many people like dirac room correction. I can hear ITD but i think the dirac results sound very bad in range 80-400 hz. I examine closer wy this happen. When the dirac EQ is measure there can see alot large group delay changes diffrence between left and right channel.

I look that in the range of 100-300 hz(where i need reduce level 6 db ) very few eq is use. dirac and other reduce this frequency 8 db . this give large group delay changes. phase linear filter help a little but because of pre ring can also not optimal.

a measure and correct of speaker do also protect the ears because many rooms have lots of boost in 100-300 hz range

this are my EQ settings with t racks mini dsp and group delay from EQ measure(without speaker) . i hear clear that it sound much better as dirac in compare with headphone

View attachment 207207

here is dirac group delay
View attachment 207209

this is a song and the pads sound with dirac strange and muddy.



sonarworks(newest version) is better but still sound not so good for ITD as my EQ setting

View attachment 207210


and this is arc 2.5 (they use audisys)

View attachment 207212
Hi,

Can you start a new thread on this? I think it's very interesting. Thanks.
 
... after longer loud hear often feel that it is not so loud as at the time when wake up. ...
Part of this is adaption of the ear to ambient noise. Muscles shift the positions of middle ear bones to change sensitivity. But this biological adaptation, which increases our dynamic range perception, doesn't happen fast enough to protect from sudden impulses like gunshots, nor can it protect against sustained sounds that are too loud.
... hear loss in ITD is known as cocktail party effect. people that can not hear ITD have problems to understand a voice(they ewant follow) when more people speak in a room at diffrent positions at same time ...
My understanding is that high frequency response is the primary contributing factor to the "cocktail party effect", or the ability to distinguish individual voices in loud environments.
 
Hi,

Can you start a new thread on this? I think it's very interesting. Thanks.
There is a 16 pages long one about his ITD theory:

 
Hi,

Can you start a new thread on this? I think it's very interesting. Thanks.

you mean this about the bad group delay of speaker corrrection software and how to EQ better to get better group delay ?
 
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