How good is the sound in cars really?

[killdozzer]

I've seen some threads on car stereo, but didn't find what I wanted to ask members here.

This idea of sound in cars being reference-level completely eluded me. When I got back in audio, most of my sources were on the side of sound in cars being dreadful, very hard to set up, full of real, physical obstacles and so on.

Then, out of the blue, I was confronted with the idea that the sound in cars (the factory set up) is the go to listening session for determining quality of sound. And this was quite a robust opinion among my musician friends. Nothing to substantially back it up, but quite robust.

I tried all my length of an acoustical wave, a lot of glass surfaces, no precise listening point, a small dome of a cabin that is in reality a car... No good.

My guess is this came from the idea that in modern way of living, people spend a lot of time in traffic, in their cars and you should make sure that your music sounds good in these conditions where it would be played the most. It's just a guess.

I wanted to ask you if you know where this idea comes from and if there's any truth to it?

 

[Rip City Dave]

I have never been in a car with an audio system that projects a soundstage like I perceive in my home system. No matter how detailed, clear or accurate the sound is, I cannot be satisfied until that criterion is met

 

[DanielT]

I have never been in a car with an audio system that projects a soundstage like I perceive in my home system. No matter how detailed, clear or accurate the sound is, I cannot be satisfied until that criterion is met

But many people listen to music in their car. It's nice to get as sensible a sound as possible, given the interest in that and the thickness of the wallet.

Putting a subwoofer in the car does a lot, I think. Does not have to be a "high end" sub.

Modern sound systems, in new cars. What is delivered as standard with the cars is in many cases quite good, right? A question, I only drive a rickety older car myself.
Sound insulation in new cars has in many cases improved compared to cars from the past. That in itself helps to get better sound.

 

[thewas]

Tonally many modern cars are quite good as contrary to home hifi its a defined space and they can EQ it perfectly to that. Imaging is as said an issue though due to the usually suboptimal placement of the mid drivers and early reflections of many close and hard surfaces.

The only good imaging I had once on an ex car of mine with custom drivers, DSP (frequency and delay) and the (highly placed) tweeters being crossed very low so they played also a parts of the mids.

 

[Rip City Dave]

But many people listen to music in their car. It's nice to get as sensible a sound as possible, given the interest in that and the thickness of the wallet.

Putting a subwoofer in the car does a lot, I think. Does not have to be a "high end" sub.

Modern sound systems, in new cars. What is delivered as standard with the cars is in many cases quite good, right? A question, I only drive a rickety older car myself.

I hear you. Yes, I can enjoy music in a car, but so far they do not satisfy me for critical listening, FWIW.

I guess what you drive and how well it is sound insulated makes a big difference.

My Mazda 6 has a crappy Bose system but the car itself is buzzy and noisy, so I guess I get what I deserve.

On the other hand, my son's Lexus LS430 is dead quiet inside. It has a Mark Levinson sound system which still doesn't cut it for me.

I wonder it sounds like in a Bentayga or Ghost?

 

[yantech]

Hi all!

Even though the interior of the car may be suboptimal for listening, I think it must be due to use of DSPs and more controlled placement and of the driveris (and higher count) in more modern cars that would compensate for the poor acustics inside the car.
Now compare that to cheap bluetooth mono speakers many people listen to or radio in the store or in the workplace put wherever someone see it fit.
The car manufactures can easily put the DSP profile for each model even with basic stereo but even better with Bose or Harman-Kardon like signature systems, then it probably makes it good enough for many people.
Of course, engine, tyre and wind noise will degrade sound quality but at higher listening levels and reasonably sound deadened interior it still will be better experience.

Regards!
Yantech

 

[DanielT]

This summer I was at a hi-fi dealer. We started talking about what young people are currently buying regarding Hifi equipment. It was most whiny old-fashioned middle-aged waffle (as it has always been). It was better before, nowadays today's youth, it just games and computers (the old usual whining). But he also said that what young people spend time, energy and money on is the sound of their cars. Not so stupid if you think about it. Because what does the regrowth look like in HiFi? How old are those who write on ASR for example? The new guard must start somewhere, if they are to become interested in home hi-fi.

Therefore, I put this in, as a tribute to the youth. Here the base is fixed to the "Bettan". I say good, well done!

 

[Tom C]

You’re reminding me that, decades ago, at ages 18 and 21, I bought not one piece of gear for home use, but two or three different systems for the heaps I owned that usually didn’t last a year, and some only lasted months. The audio quality of the factory systems in years past was typically abysmal, and they charged you plenty for them. You got (and still get) a lot more for your money putting in your own system. You then listen to what you want to, turn it up loud and no one complains.
When I finally finished school and started working, cars had gotten a bit harder to work on, and I never wanted to pull apart my dash and install my own system anymore. I went with the factory install on any new car I bought, but the results were typically mediocre. I’ve owned Ford almost exclusively for over thirty years. They used Sony a lot, which was only OK; the lower the volume the better. B&O in the Mustang Bullit we had was better. Have Revel now, which can be excellent, but is volume limited. I wish it could play cleanly at higher volumes, especially at freeway speeds.
I thank God my commute is short these days, so not worth fussing over, especially since you sell the car after a time, and there goes your audio system you labored over. Streaming and cd’s make it easier than when I had cassettes for the car and vinyl LP for home, but otherwise, maybe some aspects haven’t changed all that much since when the older guys were young.

 

[Rottmannash]

When in my 20's and 30's I was one of those guys who desperately wanted better sound in my cars and trucks and spent most of my spare change on that. I now don't have the time or interest to spend a day or two taking the car apart to install separates and all the wiring (my fingers are hurting just thinking about it) but did find the time this Spring to replace the terrible speakers in the 2013 Sonata front doors-used an old but wonderful pair of MB Quart separates w/ crossovers that are beautiful. Improved the sound by a large margin so was worth it. OTOH my Merc C350 has one of those head units that would be impossible to replace so am living with the Harman Kardon system it came with-the left mid driver blew out last year so replaced with a similar driver I had in my big parts bin. I still have 4 large amps, a crossover and multiple speakers I'll probably never used that came out of my multiple installs. I did enjoy those installs, as the improvement was often stunning but when selling those vehicles I had to take it all back out and try to put the old stuff in which is a PITA. I can see how younger folks would focus on their cars, as they probably spend most of their free time in them. Hope they eventually get to a place where they can affort to spend money on a home system, as that is where true audiophile sound can be realized.

But to respond to your question-yes and no. I actually enjoy being enveloped in the sound generated by a car-the HK system in the MB is pretty wonderful from the factory and can get quite loud. The only thing missing is a sub and I believe they included a sub on the model year newer than mine. However the sound from a home system is truly incredible and I'm not certain that type of experience could ever be easily reproduced in an enclosed space like an automobile.

 

[NTK]

I recently read some of Dr. David Griesinger's papers on surround sound technology. Apparently at the time his thought was that surround in cars was going to take off.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/paris.pdf

Quote from his paper on the part on surround in cars:

​

But there is hope for at least some types of surround. For the last several years I have​

been working in combination with Harman Motive on Logic 7 matrix systems in​

automobiles. The killer application for surround systems is in cars. Remember I tried to​

show how a sense of a larger space could be created through a combination of early and​

late lateral reflections? Logic 7 matrix can do this in a car, and the results are dramatic.​

​

Automobiles are an impossible space for sound. No listener is anywhere near a sweet​

spot, and the playback room is tiny. There is no better place for a surround system with​

an enormous listening area, and a very high ability to recreate envelopment. When you​

switch between two channel stereo and Logic 7 surround in a good listening room there is​

a noticeable and worthwhile improvement. If you do the same experiment in a car the​

difference is night and day.​

​

With the surround on the front image falls into place, and the individual voices move​

from about 5 inches in front of your face to beyond the windscreen. At the same time the​

side walls of the car seem to disappear. Wow!​

​

We have been modifying cars for some time to demonstrate the new technology to the​

major auto manufacturers. They love it. By the year 2005 there could be as many as a​

million cars with Logic 7 matrix systems on the roads. This is a market - a sizeable​

market - for matrix encoded surround CDs. Will record companies jump to release their​

catalogs in matrix surround? It seems unlikely, but it could happen. We know that 5 to 2​

encoding produces two channel CDs that sound very good on standard two channel​

equipment, and yet play through a Logic 7 decoder in a way that is difficult to distinguish​

from the original. The product looks, costs, and markets identically to a standard CD,​

and can be broadcast. If enough people want it - and I think there will be a lot of people​

who will - we could all be surprised.​

​

 

[thewas]

I recently read some of Dr. David Griesinger's papers on surround sound technology. Apparently at the time his thought was that surround in cars was going to take off.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/paris.pdf

Quote from his paper on the part on surround in cars:

​

But there is hope for at least some types of surround. For the last several years I have​

been working in combination with Harman Motive on Logic 7 matrix systems in​

automobiles. The killer application for surround systems is in cars. Remember I tried to​

show how a sense of a larger space could be created through a combination of early and​

late lateral reflections? Logic 7 matrix can do this in a car, and the results are dramatic.​

​

Automobiles are an impossible space for sound. No listener is anywhere near a sweet​

spot, and the playback room is tiny. There is no better place for a surround system with​

an enormous listening area, and a very high ability to recreate envelopment. When you​

switch between two channel stereo and Logic 7 surround in a good listening room there is​

a noticeable and worthwhile improvement. If you do the same experiment in a car the​

difference is night and day.​

​

With the surround on the front image falls into place, and the individual voices move​

from about 5 inches in front of your face to beyond the windscreen. At the same time the​

side walls of the car seem to disappear. Wow!​

​

My previous daily car had a Harman audio system with Logic 7 and it was the only upmixer I ever liked in a car and had all the time switched on.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Car audio can be VERY good. I have listened to some very good home systems and some very good car systems. Usually the good home systems are also people that are into car audio. I think this is due to the following:

1) Acceptance that you MUST have active systems to get the best quality (each driver has an amp channel AND a DSP channel)
2) Acceptance of DSP and knowing how to use it
3) Willingness to learn how to tune to a house curve and use advanced methods
4) Placement is important

You can even see this happening in the upper OEM audio packages. My 2014 F150 had a "sony" system and every channel was active with dsp from the factory. It was NOT tuned to how I would prefer it, but their design goals was for EVERYONE in the car, not just me.

I would even put the new Rockford Fosgate Tuned Harley Davidson systems above what most people have for home audio, especially the stage 2 system.

 

[anmpr1]

How good is the sound in cars really?​

I don't have any opinion about car radios and speakers, but from the title of the thread, and for regular 'car related' sounds, I will say that a lot depends on the engine. Mostly that. Then, transmission/RPMs. Lastly, tire compound, although at the extremes, tires contribute little to the overall 'sound' of the car, from a performance oriented driver's perspective. If you can afford McIntosh or Accuphase, then you are probably driving a luxury sedan/SUV, and in that case tires will make a big sonic difference, so you don't have to worry about engine noise.

Audiophiles often talk about 'air' and 'palpable involvement' as listening/sonic attributes. I've found that in the 'air' department, natural aspiration gives a 'better' sound, especially if it is carbureted; and a manual transmission provides better palpable involvement, allowing you to more easily manipulate revs in order to achieve a complimentary engine-to-transmission sonic experience.

Also, like watts, when it comes to engine sound, more is usually better. The more cylinders you have, the better your car's sound is going to be. But it's not always iron. Analogous to something like Class D, or the Benchmark A/B form factor, a flat six (or even a four in a few rare occasions) can sound great under the right circumstances. One can't be too dogmatic.

There's a saying that at the 'strip' nothing beats 'cubes'. If you're a Boulder/Mark Levinson sort of guy, and if your checking account is the size of Ferdinand Piech's (may he RIP), then something like his W16 could be a high-end sonic option. Halcro performance, but requiring Futterman OTL maintenance/care.

Sonically, best to avoid turbocharging in small street oriented engines--Porsche got a lot of heat when they did that with their 718, but on the other hand a lot of people say the GT3 'sounds' better than the GT2, even as the latter is more 'muscular' overall. So there you have it.

From an audiophile perspective, 'front to back' depth, balance and balanced, is important. Here, mid-engines often show a different 'sound' than engines that are in front, or those over the back tires. Many claim the former gives a more 'visceral' sonic feel. But this might simply be due to undamped vibrations.

Avoid phony baloney fake engine sound. No one likes added coloration. Instead, if you are feeling that the 'sound' in your car is too anemic, you can always 'horn load' it with an aftermarket 'sub' from Thrush or Cherry Bomb.

For high SPL and low distortion, ear protection is a must at the extremes. Top Fuel cars, although only running for a few seconds, will blow your ear drums out if you are too up close to the action. Or even sitting in the stands. I've read that sustained SPL of 160dB are not uncommon. But few are likely to encounter this sort of thing on their own, in their daily driving. In any case, an aftermarket sound system would be useless in a dragster.

 

[DVDdoug]

Then, out of the blue, I was confronted with the idea that the sound in cars (the factory set up) is the go to listening session for determining quality of sound. And this was quite a robust opinion among my musician friends. Nothing to substantially back it up, but quite robust.

Mixing & mastering engineers use good-accurate monitors in a treated room. Then, they often check the mix on more "average" or "substandard" speakers/monitors to make sure it's going to sound good everywhere. (They call this "translation".) They may also check in their car, on headphones, earbuds, on their home stereo or TV etc.

 

[DS23MAN]

Actually, the HK logic 7 with 14 speakers is doing a pretty good yob in my Land Rover Discovery 3.

 

[killdozzer]

Many fantastic answers and an appreciated funny one from @anmpr1 (I enjoyed that)

Most of you went for the top of what the sound in a car can be TODAY, but this notion is an older one and is most definitely older than DSP in cars.

Even so, DSP can't do magic. You're sitting on the right or left side, depending. Not only are you further away from one channel, but your other ear is right next to a window. Now, you can increase the volume on the remote channel, but only if you don't have anyone in the passenger seat. If you do, you can only really listen to your side of the car. I don't see how DSP could help you with this.

Some bigger cars with enough space put a speaker on the ceiling behind the rear view mirror or that box for sun glasses that you sometimes get. There are usually two, one directed at the driver and on at the passenger, but that speaker can never be a match for the strongest one which is next to your leg in the door.

Anyway, as I said, main issue here being that this idea is really older than DSP in cars. I wanted to know if you heard about this listening to the mix in your car to asses it?

Mixing & mastering engineers use good-accurate monitors in a treated room. Then, they often check the mix on more "average" or "substandard" speakers/monitors to make sure it's going to sound good everywhere. (They call this "translation".) They may also check in their car, on headphones, earbuds, on their home stereo or TV etc.

This is what I proposed, but wanted to make sure since I've noticed none of them thinks it's just to see how well it does on average or substandard systems. They are talking about how if you wish to detect any minor flaws or even the smallest objections, you'll notice them in your car while listening to your car system.

 

[hardisj]

Yes. I’ve heard car systems that sound better than home setups.

Car audio is exponentially more challenging than home audio. And because of that, I have learned a lot more about acoustics than I would have otherwise.

Also, to those who turn their nose up at car audio just remember that many of the top and most respected engineers in home and pro audio world have worked in car audio.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Even so, DSP can't do magic. You're sitting on the right or left side, depending. Not only are you further away from one channel, but your other ear is right next to a window. Now, you can increase the volume on the remote channel, but only if you don't have anyone in the passenger seat. If you do, you can only really listen to your side of the car. I don't see how DSP could help you with this.

Center channels and either algorithms to get a true center channel or the use of input/output routing and all pass filters (to purposely cancel frequencies from other speakers) to get a a good center without the use of algorithms. This way you get a dedicated center, a dedicated left, and a dedicated right no matter the positioning in a car. You can even then use this for ALL seats in a car.


As far as mixing engineers using cars to determine if their mix is good or not...I don't understand that logic. I would want to mix for the best playback system, let people eq to their likeing. Lots of car systems with different goals than a hifi system (like most OEM designing for a decent experience for ALL passengers within a budget). I don't see how they would be able to hear defects in their mix by using a subpar system, unless their mixing system is subpar and their car system is better.

 

[DanielT]

When in my 20's and 30's I was one of those guys who desperately wanted better sound in my cars and trucks and spent most of my spare change on that.

... and now you're here.

There are probably a lot of people at ASR who were car stereo crazy in their youth.
Maybe they are just as crazy in car stereo even nowadays, what do I know.

 

[Rottmannash]

I recently read some of Dr. David Griesinger's papers on surround sound technology. Apparently at the time his thought was that surround in cars was going to take off.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/paris.pdf

Quote from his paper on the part on surround in cars:

​

But there is hope for at least some types of surround. For the last several years I have​

been working in combination with Harman Motive on Logic 7 matrix systems in​

automobiles. The killer application for surround systems is in cars. Remember I tried to​

show how a sense of a larger space could be created through a combination of early and​

late lateral reflections? Logic 7 matrix can do this in a car, and the results are dramatic.​

​

Automobiles are an impossible space for sound. No listener is anywhere near a sweet​

spot, and the playback room is tiny. There is no better place for a surround system with​

an enormous listening area, and a very high ability to recreate envelopment. When you​

switch between two channel stereo and Logic 7 surround in a good listening room there is​

a noticeable and worthwhile improvement. If you do the same experiment in a car the​

difference is night and day.​

​

With the surround on the front image falls into place, and the individual voices move​

from about 5 inches in front of your face to beyond the windscreen. At the same time the​

side walls of the car seem to disappear. Wow!​

​

We have been modifying cars for some time to demonstrate the new technology to the​

major auto manufacturers. They love it. By the year 2005 there could be as many as a​

million cars with Logic 7 matrix systems on the roads. This is a market - a sizeable​

market - for matrix encoded surround CDs. Will record companies jump to release their​

catalogs in matrix surround? It seems unlikely, but it could happen. We know that 5 to 2​

encoding produces two channel CDs that sound very good on standard two channel​

equipment, and yet play through a Logic 7 decoder in a way that is difficult to distinguish​

from the original. The product looks, costs, and markets identically to a standard CD,​

and can be broadcast. If enough people want it - and I think there will be a lot of people​

who will - we could all be surprised.​

​

My MB has this and it sounds OK with music but great with concert DVD encoded in multichannel.