- Thread Starter
- #21
Why?
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Home Theatre Speakers - do you really need a sub, if you have full range?
- Thread starter dlaloum
- Start date
Interesting subject...
You always need a sub, actually most people in most rooms need multiple subwoofers.
One can ponder on the use of full range speakers, it simply is not an efficient ways of resources allocation and use.
Physics are against it. Finances are against it, ergonomics are against it. Ease of implementation is against it
So Why? What advantage would using full range speakers bring to a system. What sonics advantages?
While one can find some midsized speakers that could be deemed full range, they aren't inexpensive (Genelec 8361, Neumann KH420, D&D 8C , Kii3, to name only these) ... One can consider going all KH420 or 8361 for a HT ... and be quite impressed by the sticker price for such ... 7 x $10,000. to begin, not counting processor or AVR... meanwhile one could get vastly superior results with subwoofers, even Genelec or Neuman subwoofers or , frankly, whatever subwoofers one wants...
The reality is that subwoofers are mandatory in music reproduction. Their integration is not at this point in time automatic. It takes work and time but it is doable. One, almost magic bullet is to use a processor such as the miniDSP 2x4 HD (at $250 including free delivery, although the non-HD at $120 could suffice in most cases) to linearize up to 4 subwoofers in the room with the use of MSO (free), REW (free) and a UMIK-1 ($100). This will require , yeah, sweat and frustration and time. You then present that subwoofer system as one glorious mother lode subwoofer to the AVR and let it do its thing, then massage the results to your liking.
I would venture that if one truly want a great system and has the kind of budget for full range all around ... $10,000 for subwoofing, is not that big a deal
. So dropping 4 x SVS Ultra 16 plus the miniDSP 2x4 HD .. is not pushing the enveloppe . And in most rooms , even palatial ones, you are insured of going down 10 Hz at 120 db ( I know I am pushing it ) with aplomb and what is most interesting almost at any seat in the room!!
So yeah you could go Full range ...
You always need a sub, actually most people in most rooms need multiple subwoofers.
One can ponder on the use of full range speakers, it simply is not an efficient ways of resources allocation and use.
Physics are against it. Finances are against it, ergonomics are against it. Ease of implementation is against it
So Why? What advantage would using full range speakers bring to a system. What sonics advantages?
While one can find some midsized speakers that could be deemed full range, they aren't inexpensive (Genelec 8361, Neumann KH420, D&D 8C , Kii3, to name only these) ... One can consider going all KH420 or 8361 for a HT ... and be quite impressed by the sticker price for such ... 7 x $10,000. to begin, not counting processor or AVR... meanwhile one could get vastly superior results with subwoofers, even Genelec or Neuman subwoofers or , frankly, whatever subwoofers one wants...
The reality is that subwoofers are mandatory in music reproduction. Their integration is not at this point in time automatic. It takes work and time but it is doable. One, almost magic bullet is to use a processor such as the miniDSP 2x4 HD (at $250 including free delivery, although the non-HD at $120 could suffice in most cases) to linearize up to 4 subwoofers in the room with the use of MSO (free), REW (free) and a UMIK-1 ($100). This will require , yeah, sweat and frustration and time. You then present that subwoofer system as one glorious mother lode subwoofer to the AVR and let it do its thing, then massage the results to your liking.
I would venture that if one truly want a great system and has the kind of budget for full range all around ... $10,000 for subwoofing, is not that big a deal
. So dropping 4 x SVS Ultra 16 plus the miniDSP 2x4 HD .. is not pushing the enveloppe . And in most rooms , even palatial ones, you are insured of going down 10 Hz at 120 db ( I know I am pushing it ) with aplomb and what is most interesting almost at any seat in the room!!So yeah you could go Full range ...
Define full range ? Size minimal of the woofer, number of woofer...
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
Dunno about others, but If my memory is correct, Trinnov can through manual setup — or maybe that was an uber expensive storm processor? Can’t remember for certain. There should be granular control over how much LF gain is added to the channel. I have never used the full +10dB forwarded unto any single channel.
- Thread Starter
- #25
Interesting subject...
You always need a sub, actually most people in most rooms need multiple subwoofers.
One can ponder on the use of full range speakers, it simply is not an efficient ways of resources allocation and use.
Physics are against it. Finances are against it, ergonomics are against it. Ease of implementation is against it
So Why? What advantage would using full range speakers bring to a system. What sonics advantages?
While one can find some midsized speakers that could be deemed full range, they aren't inexpensive (Genelec 8361, Neumann KH420, D&D 8C , Kii3, to name only these) ... One can consider going all KH420 or 8361 for a HT ... and be quite impressed by the sticker price for such ... 7 x $10,000. to begin, not counting processor or AVR... meanwhile one could get vastly superior results with subwoofers, even Genelec or Neuman subwoofers or , frankly, whatever subwoofers one wants...
The reality is that subwoofers are mandatory in music reproduction. Their integration is not at this point in time automatic. It takes work and time but it is doable. One, almost magic bullet is to use a processor such as the miniDSP 2x4 HD (at $250 including free delivery, although the non-HD at $120 could suffice in most cases) to linearize up to 4 subwoofers in the room with the use of MSO (free), REW (free) and a UMIK-1 ($100). This will require , yeah, sweat and frustration and time. You then present that subwoofer system as one glorious mother lode subwoofer to the AVR and let it do its thing, then massage the results to your liking.
I would venture that if one truly want a great system and has the kind of budget for full range all around ... $10,000 for subwoofing, is not that big a deal
So yeah you could go Full range ...
So let me explain why....
Many of us are constrained in our space, and choices, either due to space constraints, or by WAF lifestyle/appearance factors.
Still we end up with at least 2 floor standing speakers at the front, either bookshelves on stands or full range towers of some sort
And then a pair of smaller bookshelf speakers typically on stands for surround
Assuming that many people (like me) have full range L/R, and already have floor space dedicated for the speaker stands of the surrounds - there is no lifestyle/WAF impost from switching some of these stands/bookshelf speakers to Tower/floorstanding speakers.
In cost terms, I can get a pair of 10 year old, high quality towers to match my front speakers for circa $2500 - so not cheap, but not excessive either (yes there would be some amp requirements to add to that... but I happen to have some power amps lying around)
So for a relatively reasonable price - I could have my bass supported at 4 points in my room (in addition to the existing LFE connected sub)
This would definitely provide more even bass throughout the room (unless I was really badly unlucky, and those locations happened to be on specific room nodes)
The missing link, is software to properly distribute the LFE channel to a series of full range speakers.
A question which has been relatively academic to me to date (as my speakers and Sub do not go below 20Hz) - is whether there is much to be gained by extending response further down?
There's not much to be gained in Music with further extension.
And in movies - how many will use that ? (Well over 90% of HT consumers won't have systems capable of sub 20Hz....)
So am I better off focusing on the Sub 20Hz range - or focusing on improving the 20Hz+ range - which can potentially be achieved with Full Range speakers
How are you going to get each channel to play the same bass note at the same time to have any sort of coherence? Even in mono it would be a mess.
As for output at 20hz. That's more for movies. For music the 30 to 60 hz is what I call the wow range and there are really no full range speakers which can do it like a properly setup sub array.
One suggestion I make to everyone in this hobby is try to listen to such a system if you're able to. It really changes everything.
Last edited:
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
I think one of the reasons why Dirac hasn’t released this in the public is because there are always going to be complications in real world domestic setups. One could probably optimize for this specific setup variability in a custom build starting from the ground up, but by that point multisub is just going to be so much more sensible.
fieldcar
Addicted to Fun and Learning
You can set the Bass mode to LFE+Main, but I have no clue if this works when you have no subwoofer. See the manual excerpt from my X3700H.
Bass AVR-X3700H
manuals.denon.com
Bass AVR-X3700H
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
You can set the Bass mode to LFE+Main, but I have no clue if this works when you have no subwoofer. See the manual excerpt from my X3700H.
Bass AVR-X3700H
I heard this is something Gene uses in one of his setups, but I’m not sure if this actually pushes/redirects distinct LFE content to the large mains as well.
In my home theater (family room) I run a pair of Klipsch Reference RF-82 II fronts with a pair of Reaction Audio Echo 15 subs. I can tell you from personal experience there is no comparison between running with and without subs. Running with the subs provides a visceral experience you’ll never come close to matching without them.
While you may be satisfied watching most movies without subs, IMMHO you must have subs in a home theater to feel the impact mixed into modern action films. For example: Interstellar without subs is a good film, with them it is freakin’ great.
Martin
While you may be satisfied watching most movies without subs, IMMHO you must have subs in a home theater to feel the impact mixed into modern action films. For example: Interstellar without subs is a good film, with them it is freakin’ great.
Martin
Vacceo
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I like horror films quite a lot. That genre typically includes a nice amount of infrasonics in their sound mix. While I´m sure there are speakers than can reach them, that is not typically the case and that´s where subwoofers (some at least) get the goods delivered. Typically the test track for infrasonics is the very start of Edge of Tomorrow, but similar sound is present in a lot more films. For videogames, that sound is even more evident (Doom Eternal is an easy example).
Infrasonics aside (keep in mind that not all subwoofers can deal with them), for film/series, subwoofers take a lot of work from conventional speakers, allowing the amps to run far more efficiently. The bad part, however, is room modes and integrating them, which is not easy.
Infrasonics aside (keep in mind that not all subwoofers can deal with them), for film/series, subwoofers take a lot of work from conventional speakers, allowing the amps to run far more efficiently. The bad part, however, is room modes and integrating them, which is not easy.
Fletcher and Munson researches are so old and are the odd-case of something that is well known and yet, not addressed in many discussions.
For Bass frequencies to be heard at the same apparent loudness as those of mid frequencies, they need to be in term of SPL louder. The curves of equal loudness are just that: On top of that, it's pretty easy for many 3-inch drivers to play at 120 dB at 4000 Hz at 1 meter, and doesn't require much power.. The actual 4000 Hz will be perceived to be loud and intolerable... Let's take a more mangeable level say 70 dB.. at 4000 Hz... A walk in the park for even a smartphone speaker... well not exactly, but the hyperbole was to make a point...
To hear a 30 Hz tone at the same apparent loudness would require the 30 Hz to be reproduced at an SPL of almost100 dB...!!!!
4 KHz at 70 dB..no problem for most speakers
30 Hz at 100 dB .... ???
Better to use subwoofers, a lot of these. That is what these are for. These have become less expensive too...
Peace.
For Bass frequencies to be heard at the same apparent loudness as those of mid frequencies, they need to be in term of SPL louder. The curves of equal loudness are just that: On top of that, it's pretty easy for many 3-inch drivers to play at 120 dB at 4000 Hz at 1 meter, and doesn't require much power.. The actual 4000 Hz will be perceived to be loud and intolerable... Let's take a more mangeable level say 70 dB.. at 4000 Hz... A walk in the park for even a smartphone speaker... well not exactly
, but the hyperbole was to make a point...To hear a 30 Hz tone at the same apparent loudness would require the 30 Hz to be reproduced at an SPL of almost100 dB...!!!!
4 KHz at 70 dB..no problem for most speakers
30 Hz at 100 dB .... ???
Better to use subwoofers, a lot of these. That is what these are for. These have become less expensive too...
Peace.
Exactly and also why a bass curve is preferred... and why bass management, the room, and setup is key. Everything is is just a compromise otherwise in my experience.Fletcher and Munson researches are so old and are the odd-case of something that is well known and yet, not addressed in many discussions.
For Bass frequencies to be heard at the same apparent loudness as those of mid frequencies, they need to be in term of SPL louder. The curves of equal loudness are just that: On top of that, it's pretty easy for many 3-inch drivers to play at 120 dB at 4000 Hz at 1 meter, and doesn't require much power.. The actual 4000 Hz will be perceived to be loud and intolerable... Let's take a more mangeable level say 70 dB.. at 4000 Hz... A walk in the park for even a smartphone speaker... well not exactly
To hear a 30 Hz tone at the same apparent loudness would require the 30 Hz to be reproduced at an SPL of almost100 dB...!!!!
4 KHz at 70 dB..no problem for most speakers
30 Hz at 100 dB .... ???
Better to use subwoofers, a lot of these. That is what these are for. These have become less expensive too...
Peace.
Experiencing such a room is an eye opener.
I did and is why I got 3 Monolith 15s on sale for my current upgrade. Mini dsp, mic, and rew.
It's worth it. Hell the damn tv cost more than the sub array and equipment.
LFE+Main copies the bass from the mains to the subwoofer. It doesn't copy the LFE to the mains.
Trinnov probably can(what can't it do?), but that's obscenely expensive. I suppose you could use a miniDSP, configure your AVR with a sub, take the output of all channels into the miniDSP and route the LFE channel to the other channels. You would need to calibrate the gain of that channel to be correct, which should be doable by playing bandwidth-restricted pink noise over the LFE to 1 speaker, measuring with a mic, and then adjusting the gain of that channel to match when all speakers are playing the same noise.
In theory this could work, but honestly if you have the room for 5-7 large floorstanders, I'm not sure why you wouldn't have the room for 4 subs, and 4 subs with DSP is pretty much all you need to achieve dead flat frequency response across multiple seating positions in most rooms. Their output will be greater than your speakers as well unless you have larger woofers in the speakers than in the subs. Speaker drivers and their ports are not generally optimized purely for low bass output the way subs are either. Not to mention bass management will substantially reduce IMD in the speakers.
Any solution that involves relying on normal consumer AVR downmixing is going to work inconsistently, I'm pretty sure.
fieldcar
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Oh wow. Thanks for the catch. I was asleep at the wheel for sure. I was going off a vague memory of the setting and not reading what I copied.
This is incorrect. With a Denon or Marantz, when you tell it you have no subs, it forces you to set your L&R to "Large" and sends the LFE signal there automatically.
A couple calibrations ago, I was curious how well this worked on my system so I took some measurements. With subs, here was the response for the left, right, and LFE (low pass set to 250 Hz for measuring purposes):
With the same calibration, only changed to eliminate the subs and set the speakers to large, this is how it measured:
So the LFE channel certainly plays without subs--10 dB boost and all. That said, my L&R make for a pretty mediocre LFE channel.
I was also wrong about something--I had been under the assumption that the LFE signal was going to be sent to all speakers set to "Large." Nope. For this test I had the center and surrounds set to large as well but no sound at all came from them when testing the LFE signal. This really takes the wind out of the sails of those thinking that using large towers all around the room is going to give them a good LFE signal--at least using a Denon or Marantz (the above test was done with a Marantz 7012). With all the LFE going to the left and right, you need pretty big speakers in those locations to equal what even a pretty small sub can do and not get overloaded.
Unless you tested this with all the major audio codecs it's unfortunately not valid. If you just used REW or whatever, then you're sending PCM audio so it's valid for that.
LFE behaviour with no subwoofer is different for the DD+ decoder, DD decoder, and then different again for the multi-stream codecs like TrueHD/Atmos, which afaik prevents audio engineers from even trying to include the LFE in the stereo mix. I never researched DTS since I only have a handful of movies that use it, but it could also be different.
I guess this leaves a path open for those who don't care about Atmos and don't want to use subs. If you use some kind of playback system that decodes dolby/dts and sends 5.1/7.1 PCM to the AVR, it should produce a consistent downmix that includes the LFE. That digital downmix will cost you 10dB of headroom. I don't know if it will increase the risk of weird clipping behaviours.
This discovery is very useful though! It's actually even worse than I thought. On top of the inconsistent LFE downmixing issue, this makes a multi-channel system without subs pretty pointless IMO. Only having the L/R involved limits you to two LFE sources with no placement flexibility, no matter how many floorstanders you've got.
- Thread Starter
- #38
There are several issues here...
1) What does the AVR doe with simple 5.1 streams, when set to 5.0 - in this case the LFE goes to L/R only
2) If the 5 speakers are all full range (and full range capabilities do vary!)
What does each mixer/decoder do with the LFE content?
What does the AVR default configuration do with the the LFE content?
What does Audyssey or Dirac (or whatever other Room EQ system your setup has) do with the LFE content?
Although as a default statement, it should be possible to run a surround setup without needing a Sub/LFE, the default position for the last 20 years has been that the speakers around the room are limited to 80Hz (occasionally with full range front mains) and that LFE is done exclusively through the sub(s).
That means that all the design and testing focus has been on this configuration - things that should theoretically work, may or may not work - the default software may simply not use the capabilities of the large speakers - even when it should!
With Dirac starting to push its SRC (Spatial Room Correction) upcoming software - this attention focus may change... any setup with SRC, will (should?) be able to make full use of Full range speakers, as well as however many subs are available.
And once that happens, things may also shift in the way mixers handle the low end - who gets to rule the roost? The mixer or the RoomEQ?
Interesting times.
1) What does the AVR doe with simple 5.1 streams, when set to 5.0 - in this case the LFE goes to L/R only
2) If the 5 speakers are all full range (and full range capabilities do vary!)
What does each mixer/decoder do with the LFE content?
What does the AVR default configuration do with the the LFE content?
What does Audyssey or Dirac (or whatever other Room EQ system your setup has) do with the LFE content?
Although as a default statement, it should be possible to run a surround setup without needing a Sub/LFE, the default position for the last 20 years has been that the speakers around the room are limited to 80Hz (occasionally with full range front mains) and that LFE is done exclusively through the sub(s).
That means that all the design and testing focus has been on this configuration - things that should theoretically work, may or may not work - the default software may simply not use the capabilities of the large speakers - even when it should!
With Dirac starting to push its SRC (Spatial Room Correction) upcoming software - this attention focus may change... any setup with SRC, will (should?) be able to make full use of Full range speakers, as well as however many subs are available.
And once that happens, things may also shift in the way mixers handle the low end - who gets to rule the roost? The mixer or the RoomEQ?
Interesting times.
That is the main issue. All AVR/AVP that I looked at or used doesn’t pass the LFE to any other channel.
All it does is disable bass management for front speakers. LFE still only send to the sub out.You can set the Bass mode to LFE+Main, but I have no clue if this works when you have no subwoofer. See the manual excerpt from my X3700H.
Bass AVR-X3700H
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