Home theatre and audio up-grade issues

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Hello!

I stumbled across ASR by chance yesterday and seem to have spent every waking moment since then combing through Amir's reviews and browsing the forums.

Some background:

I have a home theatre system in our fairly large living room. The system also functions as a stereo and multi-channel audio system. The heart of the system is an Arcam AVR350 which I bought new in 2006 and love. It was expensive by my standards, but turned out to be worth it.

I feed it from an Arcam DV139 CD/SACD/DVD player which I bought used and still thought very expensive, together with a Squeezebox through a Bryston BD-1 DAC (also bought used). The speakers are home-built in a 4.1 arrangement. The television sits on a large cabinet and there's nowhere to put a centre channel. The television was a Toshiba 50" plasma, also from 2006. I tend to keep my gear a long time and like it to be reliable.

The TV was 720p native resolution, which worked out just fine with the DVD player and AVR. Terrific picture. Eventually, irritating things started to happen: remote controls failed, someone invented HDMI, someone else invented Netflix...The AVR has a couple of HDMI inputs, but it's an early version and doesn't carry audio. We watched Netflix via my PC using an HDMI cable and a Toslink cable for audio. When I moved my PC to another room, I hooked up an early Apply TV instead. However, it all became too complicated, especially with a universal remote trying to control it all.

After much heart-rending, I recently bought an LG OLED65B9PUA 65" television. I corrected the picture settings using an old version of Digital Video Essentials, fed the TV via HDMI from the AVR, used the TV's Toslink audio output to loop back to the AVR, and settled back to enjoy a favourite DVD. We were very disappointed with the picture - nothing like as good as our old 50" plasma.

My first thought was that I might be expecting too much by feeding a 2160p TV from a 720p DVD via an AVR of the same era. I had really hoped that I wouldn't have to "up-grade" my AVR, but it seemed likely that I would. I was considering Denon's X3500H, but read a lot of unfavourable reliability reports from users. I then aimed rather higher at the Anthem MRX-720, but Amir's tests were a little disappointing. The Anthem was as far as I got before I wondered whether I might be throttling the TV by using an old HDMI cable (I have no idea what version it is).

First question:

Is it likely that my TV's picture quality is being degraded by the HDMI cable?

Second question:

Bearing in mind the capabilities of the television (which includes HDMI 2 and HDCP 2.2), should I replace my AVR anyway? Arcam's current products are beyond my price point, although an out-of-production AVR390 might work if I can find an open-box specimen. Otherwise it looks like the Anthem or the Denon. I will be adding a centre channel when I build a new cabinet for the TV. I could add ceiling speakers too, but I tend to regard such things as mainly marketing ploys.

Third question:

My DV139 player is a fine piece of equipment, but it doesn't play "modern" disc formats. Should I consider either replacing it or adding a BD player? Replacement would be better, because my wife gives me disdainful looks whenever I add another "black box", but it would need to play SACDs as well.

Thank you to anyone who has actually made it all the way through this dissertation. In retrospect, I should probably just have asked: can an old HDMI cable spoil the image on a 4k TV?

 

[A800]

I would use a BD player that supports upscaling.

 

[carlob]

Thank you to anyone who has actually made it all the way through this dissertation. In retrospect, I should probably just have asked: can an old HDMI cable spoil the image on a 4k TV?

Is the AVR doing something to the video signal or just pass-through? The Oled LG is one of the best TV around, why are you punishing it with 720p content? I would buy a modern BD player and a high speed HDMI cable.

 

[amirm]

Is it likely that my TV's picture quality is being degraded by the HDMI cable?

Definitely not. If you are getting a picture without sparkles/dashes over the image, you are good. Your source is only 480p by the way so long way from your TV's resolution or limits of your HDMI cable.

As noted, best bet would be to at least get a Blu-ray player or one that is UHD player. You would of course need to have new content. I suggest getting at least one new disc to see what your TV is capable of.

Needless to say, until you upgrade your AVR, the above player needs to connect to the TV directly.

As to your Plasma looking better, it may had its sharpness control set higher or higher contrast mode. Play with default settings in your TV and see if you like them better. When done, better use Cinema or film mode.

 

[amirm]

By the way, the Denon AVR-X3600H has very good performance and is one that I recommend. See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/denon-avr-x3600h-av-receiver-review.12676/

 

[MZKM]

I went from a 58” Samsung plasma to a 75” Vizio Quantum X, it’s better in every regard (and I only have 1080p sources), except far off-axis watching. So, your OLED should not look worse.

 

[Sancus]

You're using very low resolution content(DVD is 480p or less) on a high resolution screen. Low resolution plasmas and CRTs did a better job of hiding the flaws of poor source content, because of the lower pixel density and the fact that their pixels are somewhat soft around the edges, producing a natural anti-aliasing effect.

Try connecting the player directly to the TV and using the lowest possible output resolution, so that the TV's upscaling does as much of the work as possible. It is likely better than the upscaling in your old AVR/DVD players.

Of course, the real solution is to upgrade your content resolution, because everything under 720p just looks like blurry soup to me nowadays, lol.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Thank you for your many helpful and constructive replies. It's a long time since I last had to do this kind of thing, so I'm having to learn all over again.

During the course of today I came to the conclusion that a new player is the first step - with the video connected directly to the TV and the audio connected to the AVR. So it seems that all I need is a player with a couple of HDMI outputs (i.e. no analogue outs and let the AVR do the DAC).

However, I'm having a hard time finding a UHD player that will play SACDs. There's the Pioneer Elite UDP-LX500, but it's seems rather expensive; there's the Cambridge Audio CXUHD, which is quite tempting in its simplicity; and there's the Panasonic DP-UB820, which seems like an excellent player - but I'd have to keep my old DV139 as well just to play SACDs. I have to look at their various features in more detail - and figure out what they all mean! The ability to stream FLAC from my PC would allow me to dispense with my Squeezebox (I think), a smartphone app to replace a remote control would deal with the problem of remotes dying, and no doubt there are lots of other things I need to consider and compare.

Meanwhile, if you have any further comments or suggestions related to these particular players (or for alternatives), I'd like to hear them!

Thanks again for your input so far...

 

[Sancus]

I think the Sony UBP-X800M2 is the best option if you need SACD playback. Even though its Dolby Vision support is a weird manual on/off thing. Dunno how many SACDs you have, but I'd rip 'em and move to a physical media free system, myself. I know that's some work if you have many, though.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I probably have only a few dozen SACDs, but I do enjoy them. I have no idea how to rip them...I've heard that it can be done, but it seemed very involved. Is there a simple tutorial somewhere?

I'm not really a fan of Sony for various reasons, so ripping might be a good idea. Once ripped, would I need anything special to play the hi-res or multichannel rips?

 

[Sancus]

I probably have only a few dozen SACDs, but I do enjoy them. I have no idea how to rip them...I've heard that it can be done, but it seemed very involved. Is there a simple tutorial somewhere?

I'm not really a fan of Sony for various reasons, so ripping might be a good idea. Once ripped, would I need anything special to play the hi-res or multichannel rips?

It's definitely a weekend project and requires some research and specific bluray players. Some of that is documented here. I think SACDExtractGui is probably the easiest current way? @Kal Rubinson knows more about this than most of us

Once you have the files encoded as multi-channel FLAC, many things can play them, including some bluray players. I play my multi-channel FLACs using Emby as server software and an Nvidia Shield TV Pro box(it also works for all streaming services).

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Thanks, Sancus. It seems a little easier than the last time I read up on this subject. I've read only the first couple of pages of posts in your link...if I'm reading it correctly, it sounds like the Cambridge CXUHD might works as a ripper, in which case I get a UHD BD player, an SACD player, and an SACD ripper all in one box. This is very tempting.

I don't quite understand how the play-back side works yet, but I'll read up on that later. I use a Squeezebox at present, but that's another box that my wife would like to see disappear. I'm in the process of designing a new TV cabinet and matching AV equipment cabinet at the moment, and the fewer the pieces of equipment, the better.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Just to close the loop on this subject:

I ended up buying a Panasonic DP-UB820 player. I haven't tried an Ultra HD Blu-Ray disc yet, but I have done two comparisons on my LG OLED television: the first where I compared a DVD in my old player with the same DVD in my new player, and the second where I have both the DVD and BD discs of the same movie.

The Panasonic certainly improves the DVD image over my Arcam DV139. Although the up-scaling can't do more than smooth out the image, this certainly helps to the extent that my wife approves. The Panasonic also brightens the image (which is fine), although I did find that I had to increase the brightness in the player to +6. This was the only way I could get on satisfactory result in the pluge test. This makes me wonder about the many comments one reads about "black blacks" on modern equipment. I often think that black blacks simply means a lack of shadow detail.

Comparing a DVD to a BD on the Panasonic, the BD was significantly sharper as you would expect. My wife was impressed. Can't wait to try an Ultra HD disc. Also, this was through a high speed HDMI cable. My television's manual specifies using an ultra high speed cable, so I have one on order. More experiments!

My short-list of players included the Cambridge Audio CXUHD and the Sony UBP-X800M2, both of which will play SACDs. The Cambridge is now a discontinued product and the Sony (which is a brand I generally don't buy on principle) lacks multi-channel outputs. This means that it wouldn't be any use for playing SACDs through my Arcam AVR350 receiver anyway (which has an early, non-audio release of HDMI). With the Panasonic, I use HDMI to the television for video and Toslink to the AVR for audio.

Overall, I'm happy with the outcome, although I do miss my old plasma, which produced a remarkably good picture from a DVD. At least I didn't have to buy a new AVR. I'll keep my DV139 for playing SACDs, at which it does a superb job, at least until I figure out how to rip and replay them.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Just to close the loop on this subject:

I ended up buying a Panasonic DP-UB820 player. I haven't tried an Ultra HD Blu-Ray disc yet, but I have done two comparisons on my LG OLED television: the first where I compared a DVD in my old player with the same DVD in my new player, and the second where I have both the DVD and BD discs of the same movie.

The Panasonic certainly improves the DVD image over my Arcam DV139. Although the up-scaling can't do more than smooth out the image, this certainly helps to the extent that my wife approves. The Panasonic also brightens the image (which is fine), although I did find that I had to increase the brightness in the player to +6. This was the only way I could get on satisfactory result in the pluge test. This makes me wonder about the many comments one reads about "black blacks" on modern equipment. I often think that black blacks simply means a lack of shadow detail.

Comparing a DVD to a BD on the Panasonic, the BD was significantly sharper as you would expect. My wife was impressed. Can't wait to try an Ultra HD disc. Also, this was through a high speed HDMI cable. My television's manual specifies using an ultra high speed cable, so I have one on order. More experiments!

My short-list of players included the Cambridge Audio CXUHD and the Sony UBP-X800M2, both of which will play SACDs. The Cambridge is now a discontinued product and the Sony (which is a brand I generally don't buy on principle) lacks multi-channel outputs. This means that it wouldn't be any use for playing SACDs through my Arcam AVR350 receiver anyway (which has an early, non-audio release of HDMI). With the Panasonic, I use HDMI to the television for video and Toslink to the AVR for audio.

Overall, I'm happy with the outcome, although I do miss my old plasma, which produced a remarkably good picture from a DVD. At least I didn't have to buy a new AVR. I'll keep my DV139 for playing SACDs, at which it does a superb job, at least until I figure out how to rip and replay them.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

You may want to include an Oppo 103/105 or 203/205 in your setup. They play SACD and DVDA, convert all kind of Mch format to 8 channel PCM via HDMI and double as DAC, the x05s seem to be very good for that, I own a 103. The 2xx are crazy expensive as they are discontinued, a 103 can be bought for 400USD/€.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

You may want to include an Oppo 103/105 or 203/205 in your setup. They play SACD and DVDA, convert all kind of Mch format to 8 channel PCM via HDMI and double as DAC, the x05s seem to be very good for that, I own a 103. The 2xx are crazy expensive as they are discontinued, a 103 can be bought for 400USD/€.

Also, the 103 and 105 are the easiest tools for ripping SACD.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I've been watching out for an Oppo for some time, but the prices are silly and getting worse. Also, I bought my daughter an Oppo many years ago - it might have been a 970hd - it died after a couple of years and left a bad taste in my mouth for the brand.

 

[rccarguy]

I've played back sd dvd into my 65" c9 looks great, your settings probably not right.

Very good considering bigger TV and twice the resolution of my Kuro 50"

Make sure dvd is decent bitrate, starship troopers is a good picture quality for dvd

 

[rccarguy]

You're using very low resolution content(DVD is 480p or less) on a high resolution screen. Low resolution plasmas and CRTs did a better job of hiding the flaws of poor source content, because of the lower pixel density and the fact that their pixels are somewhat soft around the edges, producing a natural anti-aliasing effect.

Try connecting the player directly to the TV and using the lowest possible output resolution, so that the TV's upscaling does as much of the work as possible. It is likely better than the upscaling in your old AVR/DVD players.

Of course, the real solution is to upgrade your content resolution, because everything under 720p just looks like blurry soup to me nowadays, lol.

I have played region 1 dvd on my oled, looks very good. I was even watching supernova 2012 a low budget dvd on dvr-r but picture was superb. As long as movie used good film stock and transfer isn't highly compressed with mpeg it looks good.

Oppo 983 dvd and Panasonic 820 bd player.

 

[carlob]

Check your settings, a LG Oled is way better than every plasma tv ever made. The best would be to have it professionally calibrated but still you can use the Rtings settings as a starting point. Go here for the C9 settings, should be the same for the B9: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled/settings

 

[Astrozombie]

This is why I try to play DVDs or bad Blu-rays on my smaller display. Garbage In Garbage Out. There's only so much the electronics can do.