Home Theater Sound - All Is Lost

[Putter]

Top Gear for a DIY Home Theater System
A big-screen TV, sound bar, smart speaker, Blu-ray player, and streaming device that will turn any TV room into a movie house

This is title of the article from Consumer Reports, a reasonably sensible mainstream nonprofit magazine that tries to objectively review various consumer products. It's the soundbar that makes me cringe. There's no way that a soundbar can come anywhere close to movie theater sound.

There are 5 systems (out of 64) that do include rear speakers which at least approaches or equals the level of budget Home theaters in a box. I will also stipulate that any soundbar is likely to beat TV speakers.

 

[xr100]

According to an article on the Audioxpress website, which alas I cannot locate right now, sales of soundbars are now 1,000,000 units/year, and AV receivers, 100,000 units/year.

Or was that 10,000,000 soundbar units/year? Hmm. Not sure what region the figures are for, US only?

In any case, the sales of AVRs have plummeted. And, whilst this is not a good trend from my POV (reduction in economies of scale for AVR production!)--in all honesty I don't see the point in a "discrete" surround system for most users.

As I think Matthew Polk once said, you'd be lucky if someone with stereo speakers would wire them in phase and not have one pointing one way and the other towards the kitchen...

 

[pozz]

There are two interesting soundbars that I know of: the Sennheiser Ambeo and the beamforming Yarra 3DX. I haven't heard either one yet.

 

[Martin]

Soundbars have taken the place of Bose lifestyle systems. Better than TV speaker sound quality in a tidy WAF agreeable form factor. Very few people have or can afford a dedicated home theater. Luckily, I have an accommodating wife that allows me to have an 85" TV with a large 7.2 surround speaker system in our family room. Movies at home are as good or better than in the cinema. It helps that she enjoys it, too.

Martin

 

[xr100]

Soundbars have taken the place of Bose lifestyle systems. Better than TV speaker sound quality in a tidy WAF agreeable form factor.

Some soundbars are really quite terrible. And of those that are more expensive, I've mostly not been impressed the by ones I've heard.

The funny thing is that "Bose" was hated for so long, but some of their "lifestyle" products, aside from the ridiculous pricing, given the form factor, were actually quite good. They won't compete with a "proper" system, of course, but I've certainly heard some Bose systems that are at least "convincing" enough for "virtual" surround. And, despite the high crossover frequencies, their bandpass subwoofer designs could be pretty good at avoiding too much localisation.

(Albeit sub/sat systems from Bose that used the 3" Twiddler drivers were not very good; a bit like cardboard shoved down your ear canals! Their "high WAF" systems don't work in larger rooms, either, and I've seen absurd setups such as full-sized separates with... Bose sub/sat speakers. In one case the owner, residing in a very expensive abode in Notting Hill, wondered why the sound was not satisfactory when the satellites were about 20ft. apart! But they heard "Bose is best." OK...)

Very few people have or can afford a dedicated home theater.

Quite. And at least if you are in the "new world" and live in a 4,000sq.ft. "McMansion" with basement ready to convert... otherwise...

Luckily, I have an accommodating wife that allows me to have an 85" TV with a large 7.2 surround speaker system in our family room. Movies at home are as good or better than in the cinema. It helps that she enjoys it, too.

Awesome!

 

[bishbashsplash]

I think soundbars are fantastic, they lower the barrier to entry for beginners to experience better sound than standard TV speakers — which in turn increases the number of people who become hardcore AV fans, which in turn expands the market and speeds up innovation.

 

[Doodski]

I provided Bose warranty service for years. I disliked the sound of the stuff but most of it was constructed very well.

 

[jhaider]

There are two interesting soundbars that I know of: the Sennheiser Ambeo and the beamforming Yarra 3DX. I haven't heard either one yet.

I have Yarra 3DX in my office. The imaging effects are neat, but it does not sound amazing. It works well enough to keep NPR on in the background. I have not been able to measure it to set the EQ.

 

[Spocko]

Soundbars have taken the place of Bose lifestyle systems. Better than TV speaker sound quality in a tidy WAF agreeable form factor. Very few people have or can afford a dedicated home theater. Luckily, I have an accommodating wife that allows me to have an 85" TV with a large 7.2 surround speaker system in our family room. Movies at home are as good or better than in the cinema. It helps that she enjoys it, too.

Martin

I think the reason for the decline is even simpler: multichannel anything requires too much work. Selecting 5 speakers, positioning them, selecting an AVR, room calibration, subwoofer crawl, etc. Seriously time consuming not to mention overwhelming if you’re used to simple plug n play Sonos ecosystems

 

[Spocko]

I think soundbars are fantastic, they lower the barrier to entry for beginners to experience better sound than standard TV speakers — which in turn increases the number of people who become hardcore AV fans, which in turn expands the market and speeds up innovation.

I don’t see soundbars as a gateway to HiFi or a lure to true multichannel at all. I think it’s an endgame destination for most people. It’s like thinking people who buy a Prius will eventually get a Mustang.

 

[Putter]

I think the reason for the decline is even simpler: multichannel anything requires too much work. Selecting 5 speakers, positioning them, selecting an AVR, room calibration, subwoofer crawl, etc. Seriously time consuming not to mention overwhelming if you’re used to simple plug n play Sonos ecosystems

I do feel that the makers seem to keep increasing the complexity, 5 channel then 6, then 7, then Atmos with 9,11,or even 13 channels! My feeling is that you get 95% of the home theater experience with a 5.1 channel setup and that the makers need to pursue wireless as much as possible to eliminate all those wires which admittedly doesn't eliminate the power issues. Also the planned obsolescence with the change to HDMI with changing versions and previously mentioned Atmos is a big turnoff for many.

 

[Sancus]

I do feel that the makers seem to keep increasing the complexity, 5 channel then 6, then 7, then Atmos with 9,11,or even 13 channels! My feeling is that you get 95% of the home theater experience with a 5.1 channel setup and that the makers need to pursue wireless as much as possible to eliminate all those wires which admittedly doesn't eliminate the power issues. Also the planned obsolescence with the change to HDMI with changing versions and previously mentioned Atmos is a big turnoff for many.

HDMI version changes are mostly due to increasing bandwidth requirements for higher resolutions and refresh rates. You couldn't even get 4K 120hz through HDMI 2.0, which is pretty sad. They could probably design the specs to allow for extra bandwidth in advance, but there isn't much financial incentive to do it that way, as it creates a larger up front cost(more expensive chipsets in devices) combined with a disincentive for end users to upgrade. If I was running that business, I'd make the same choice.

Have you heard a good Atmos setup with height channels? It's definitely a noticeable upgrade over not having height channels. They add a lot of atmosphere with the right content. Atmos is really intended to transition away from the whole "channels" concept of data storage in general, since it's pretty limited. The idea of defining arbitrary sound sources in a 3D sound field instead and having the algorithm calculate how that can best be output based on the number of speakers you have is a good one, unfortunately a lot of the actual Atmos production doesn't seem to be using that functionality properly and is instead emulating 7.1.4 setups.

 

[digicidal]

Honestly I have enough speakers to set up a 16.4.4 setup if I didn't care about voicing at all... but I'm seriously considering getting one of these for the family room if I have the same problems in the next house as I do in my current one. I do have a loft that's a dedicated theater however, not sure I'd be as agreeable if it were a one-and-only solution. If your only other option is a pair of monitors shoved back on bookcase shelves with almost no room to breathe... or a daily pull out and put back away after use situation... a soundbar starts looking pretty nice. Especially when many "less technical" (and certainly less critical) listeners will be watching TV/movies at that location. Tons of punch and reasonably decent illusion of surround via DSP (provided the room isn't completely open that is)... and 100% WAF approval since it occupies zero floor space!

Ah who am I kidding... I just want even more speakers of different designs to play with.

 

[FrantzM]

I think the reason for the decline is even simpler: multichannel anything requires too much work. Selecting 5 speakers, positioning them, selecting an AVR, room calibration, subwoofer crawl, etc. Seriously time consuming not to mention overwhelming if you’re used to simple plug n play Sonos ecosystems

I don’t see soundbars as a gateway to HiFi or a lure to true multichannel at all. I think it’s an endgame destination for most people. It’s like thinking people who buy a Prius will eventually get a Mustang.

Hi

Agreeing with you on both posts. Setting an HT system properly is not easy. It takes time and knowledge. I would go as far as saying that some soundbar-based system are likely to perform better in most common living rooms than a 9.4.2 or whatever number of surround channels, that are improperly set-up... something that is more common than it should. As a matter of fact , it is easier to misconfigure those systems than it should, in spite of all the automatic set-up features of modern AVRs.. plus connectivity is always an issue.. . Yet manufacturers continue to make their AVR ystem more complex and (a related but different subject) more difficult to operate.
With something like the Vizio soundbars, connected to your Vizio TV following the directions, you have a modicum of surround in your home... It is operable by any member of the family .. A fun, functioning appliance... Compare this to any AVR-based system with any TV... In these days and ages that shouldn't be the case. For anyone interested, please try to listen to the SONOS Soundbar-based"5.1" + the SONOS SUB, take about 2 hours to set up and sound wonderful and convincing. No it cannot surpass a properly set-up similar or better than a 5.1 like mine based on an AVR, 3 JBL LSR 308 an 2 LSR 305 and 3 15 inches PE subs + miniDSP to control the subs ... a system that took me a year to setup (not finished, yet) .. but for most usual mortals and even enthusiasts, I would recommend the SONOS, it gets them there... more than halfway without spending most of their free time setting up components ... And adding more SONOS in the house is relatively easy ... and decent sounding.

About the Prius thing ... Once you get there .. unless you are a fanatics such as us on this board .. You stay there.

 

[pozz]

Honestly I have enough speakers to set up a 16.4.4 setup if I didn't care about voicing at all... but I'm seriously considering getting one of these for the family room if I have the same problems in the next house as I do in my current one. I do have a loft that's a dedicated theater however, not sure I'd be as agreeable if it were a one-and-only solution. If your only other option is a pair of monitors shoved back on bookcase shelves with almost no room to breathe... or a daily pull out and put back away after use situation... a soundbar starts looking pretty nice. Especially when many "less technical" (and certainly less critical) listeners will be watching TV/movies at that location. Tons of punch and reasonably decent illusion of surround via DSP (provided the room isn't completely open that is)... and 100% WAF approval since it occupies zero floor space!

Ah who am I kidding... I just want even more speakers of different designs to play with.

Another interesting one.

They're like mini-arrays used at live shows: smooth coverage being the most important aspect. It makes sense that Rtings started rating them.

 

[carlosmante]

Some soundbars are really quite terrible. And of
those
that are more expensive, I've mostly not been impressed
the
by

ones
I've heard.

The funny thing is that "Bose" was hated for so long, but some of their "lifestyle" products, aside from the ridiculous pricing, given the form factor, were actually quite good. They won't compete with a "proper" system, of course, but I've certainly heard some Bose systems that are at least "convincing" enough for "virtual" surround. And, despite the high crossover frequencies, their bandpass subwoofer designs could be pretty good at avoiding too much localisation.

(Albeit sub/sat systems from Bose that used the 3" Twiddler drivers were not very good; a bit like cardboard shoved down your ear canals! Their "high WAF" systems don't work in larger rooms, either, and I've seen absurd setups such as full-sized separates with... Bose sub/sat speakers. In one case the owner, residing in a very expensive abode in Notting Hill, wondered why the sound was not satisfactory when the satellites were about 20ft. apart! But they heard "Bose is best." OK...)



Quite. And at least if you are in the "new world" and live in a 4,000sq.ft. "McMansion" with basement ready to convert... otherwise...



Awesome!

"new world"? The new world is from Alaska to Argentina.

 

[Frank Dernie]

my system ended up losing its centre channel because it was in the way and never having sides because there is nowhere to put them so it is 4.0.
HT is only used infrequently so doesn't get high priority though.

 

[raindance]

The market for convenience products like sound bars is huge. After a couple of friends showed off their surround systems to me some years ago, basically 5 speakers piled on or next to the TV with a subwoofer located nearby, I can understand.

 

[SegaCD]

Yep, large speakers are really going the way of the dodo.

To be fair, some soundbars are actually pretty decent. One of the best (for many years) is Yamaha's very expensive YST series of sound bars. The largest of which contains 50+ speakers in a simple rectangular box. Its no replacement for discrete speakers, but don't knock it until you try it.

Can we change our perspective for a bit? Once upon a time, most folks owned Sounddesign or JCPenny/MCU audio receivers. Only the "audio people" owned Marantz, Sansui, & Pioneer... There was a huge gap in performance but many people didn't care. Nowadays, its hard to find Sounddesign-like poor audio, with most audio products sound pleasing which is good enough for most folks and, as the measurements on this site have shown, the big companies pretty much all agree that pleasing (not perfect) is good enough for most people. A magazine like Consumer Reports is really aimed towards the common man. No longer does someone need to spend hundreds to get video & audio interfaces that get the job done, thus CR will always look at the affordable equipment that is reliable, safe to use, and easy to purchase. We at ASR are a minority; most people don't want to look at graphs before they purchase their Sonos speakers for Spotify. They just want to hear their music, however compressed, distorted, etc that it may seem to some of us more critical listeners & numbers-oriented folk.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I never felt the need for a center channel. The phantom center you get out of stereo speakers is quite nice. Never saw the point of them existing. Maybe if your room is like 25 feet wide or something I guess?