Home Theater Sound - All Is Lost

[Spocko]

I do feel that the makers seem to keep increasing the complexity, 5 channel then 6, then 7, then Atmos with 9,11,or even 13 channels! My feeling is that you get 95% of the home theater experience with a 5.1 channel setup and that the makers need to pursue wireless as much as possible to eliminate all those wires which admittedly doesn't eliminate the power issues. Also the planned obsolescence with the change to HDMI with changing versions and previously mentioned Atmos is a big turnoff for many.

Couldn’t agree more. I have a ceiling Atmos setup and the improvements were not worth all the upgrade hassle beyond 5 channels. Buying 4 subwoofers for even bass response would’ve been better.

 

[Spocko]

I never felt the need for a center channel. The phantom center you get out of stereo speakers is quite nice. Never saw the point of them existing. Maybe if your room is like 25 feet wide or something I guess?

it’s for audience sitting off axis to your left and right, as it keeps the dialogue centered beneath the screen but it it’s only you in the sweet spot watching movies? Phantom is great. That said, many multichannel audio aficionados are pretty persuasive in describing the importance of that center channel if you want to truly hear multichannel audio as it was intended.

 

[Spocko]

my system ended up losing its centre channel because it was in the way and never having sides because there is nowhere to put them so it is 4.0.
HT is only used infrequently so doesn't get high priority though.

I turned my Sony A9G TV (which has the acoustic glass speaker) into my center channel for movies and zero issues with timbre matching. I have OCD when it comes to visual design, and I can’t stand that the center channel (1) looks different than L/R and (2) sits lower (or God forbid higher). I was running phantom center until the acoustic glass from Sony and now I’m complete. Improvements to sound? My wife and kids can enjoy dialogue that’s centered at the screen but overall sound quality has not suffered one bit.

 

[Spocko]

Hi

Agreeing with you on both posts. Setting an HT system properly is not easy. It takes time and knowledge. I would go as far as saying that some soundbar-based system are likely to perform better in most common living rooms than a 9.4.2 or whatever number of surround channels, that are improperly set-up... something that is more common than it should. As a matter of fact , it is easier to misconfigure those systems than it should, in spite of all the automatic set-up features of modern AVRs.. plus connectivity is always an issue.. . Yet manufacturers continue to make their AVR ystem more complex and (a related but different subject) more difficult to operate.
With something like the Vizio soundbars, connected to your Vizio TV following the directions, you have a modicum of surround in your home... It is operable by any member of the family .. A fun, functioning appliance... Compare this to any AVR-based system with any TV... In these days and ages that shouldn't be the case. For anyone interested, please try to listen to the SONOS Soundbar-based"5.1" + the SONOS SUB, take about 2 hours to set up and sound wonderful and convincing. No it cannot surpass a properly set-up similar or better than a 5.1 like mine based on an AVR, 3 JBL LSR 308 an 2 LSR 305 and 3 15 inches PE subs + miniDSP to control the subs ... a system that took me a year to setup (not finished, yet) .. but for most usual mortals and even enthusiasts, I would recommend the SONOS, it gets them there... more than halfway without spending most of their free time setting up components ... And adding more SONOS in the house is relatively easy ... and decent sounding.

About the Prius thing ... Once you get there .. unless you are a fanatics such as us on this board .. You stay there.

I’m so so tempted to get the new Monoprice HTP1 16 channel for Dirac, 4 subwoofer bass management, Auro3D and Auromatic up mixing, but as you said, to get it set up right will be a few lost weekends. So I asked myself: I can just get better stereo speakers, upgrade to something really amazing for the same price without the inconvenience.

 

[ta240]

The question is: How many people that are buying soundbars would have bought a full home theater system instead if soundbars didn't exist?

I think a huge percentage of people that would have never messed with shopping for and installing a full setup will buy soundbars and be happy with them. There is probably a smaller number that might have gone for a more 'complete' setup and are now settling for a soundbar.

 

[StevenEleven]

I have a very modest 5.1 system with two subwoofers and absolutely love it, both for me and to share with my family for gaming, movies, sports, music, etc. But I’m the only person I know personally with a 5.1 system!!! I am non-technical in terms of learning but I have learned a ton of what to worry about—and what not to worry about (a lot, actually!!)—from another forum, then primarily this forum, and now Floyd Toole’s book. I actually wonder if anything “nicer” would be lost on me. But I’m keeping an eye on the speaker reviews here for that one magic bargain speaker.

 

[Dogen]

Yeah, I think the 5.1 speaker setup is going the way of the dodo. When surround sound in the homr first came out, many friends had multi-speaker setups. I think I’m about the only one left. Heck, even stereo isn’t that hot. Most Bluetooth speakers are effectively or actually mono, and phones don’t give a very convincing stereo spread. Convenience and non-intrusiveness have won over every other consideration. Not a judgment, just a fact.

 

[xr100]

"new world"? The new world is from Alaska to Argentina.

OK, good point. "McMansions in the New World" is sloppy.

The meaning of "New World" seems to vary, but for the sake of accuracy/clarity, I meant: "Those countries that were colonised by Europeans, or regions or population subsets thereof, that have high income per capita, low population density and a regulatory environment that enables relatively affordable market prices for multi-thousand sq.ft. residential properties that have sufficient spare floorspace to enable the relatively easy assignment and conversion of part of the property for the purpose of modifying and fitting out to a high standard for the exclusive use of home cinema applications without impinging on the spatial requirements for ordinary day-to-day living."

By this definition, parts of South Africa, for instance, would qualify. Aside from the obvious reasons, the UK's rigid planning system (aka regulatory environment) would mean that it mostly does not qualify, certainly not London and its hinterlands, ditto some other European countries/regions; and ironically to some extent, due to the high cost of residential properties, parts of Australia would not. Possibly parts of Canada, too; and certainly parts of the US, such as the San Francisco Bay Area.

 

[Berwhale]

RTings have reviews with measurements of sound bars: https://www.rtings.com/soundbar/reviews/best/soundbar

They recommend the Samsung HW-Q90R: https://www.rtings.com/soundbar/reviews/samsung/hw-q90r

Given the poor performance of nearly every AVR measured on ASR, i'm highly tempted to ditch my old 5.1 setup and buy the Samsung.

 

[xr100]

I never felt the need for a center channel. The phantom center you get out of stereo speakers is quite nice. Never saw the point of them existing. Maybe if your room is like 25 feet wide or something I guess?

A phantom centre channel has various problems. These include off-centre listening (Haas effect etc.) and also with "comb filtering." Those are major reasons why the vast majority of movie dialogue is assigned to the centre channel. There are more "esoteric" aspects relating to its necessity for imaging.

 

[xr100]

it’s for audience sitting off axis to your left and right, as it keeps the dialogue centered beneath the screen.

It's supposed to go behind the screen, actually. ;-)

 

[stevenswall]

Devialet should make a bit thicker soundbar. No sub would be necessary, as they could line the front and back with 8 pairs of their dual opposing 4" woofers and easily get down to 20hz at the loudness of 8 Phantom Reactors. Throw on their tweeters that have great power handling and you'd have a soundbar that can punch you in the chest and shake the walls.

The primary problem with soundbars and most small devices that don't go deep or loud seems to be laziness, lack of good engineering, or companies prioritizing other things at the expense of bass extension.

Look at the DINAS, a $300 speaker build on Youtube, or the Devialet Phantom line if you want to know what's possible size wise for full range speakers... Now compare the DINAS to an 8" JBL. You'd think they could do better than their -10dB levels they list as their specs. Or look at every subwoofer manufacturer, and imagine if they had "quad opposing" 8" drivers that were a scaled up variant of what Devialet makes... We'd have "home theaters in a box" or soundbar+sub systems that would absolutely trash the 'high end' garbage most companies put out when it comes to even, extended frequency response and good dispersion.

 

[xr100]

I do feel that the makers seem to keep increasing the complexity, 5 channel then 6, then 7, then Atmos with 9,11,or even 13 channels!

Whilst it is fair to say that there have been various proprietary formats that represent attempts at "vendor lock-in," Dolby Atmos being the most obvious latest instance, the increase is based upon solid research into auditory requirements and represents the ability to implement more channels (and object-based audio.) In recent years the big bottleneck has probably been at the sound mixing stage. In fact, to this day, it is surprising how many processes (plug-ins, etc.) are stuck with stereo only and of those that support multichannel not all support more than 5 channels.

"Backward compatibility" means that you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to...

 

[xr100]

Honestly I have enough speakers to set up a 16.4.4 setup if I didn't care about voicing at all..

That's sort of the problem I have. My goal is PC-based digital active crossovers for all channels! And I very much dislike the scheme of reflecting the overheads off the ceiling.

 

[FrantzM]

RTings have reviews with measurements of sound bars: https://www.rtings.com/soundbar/reviews/best/soundbar

They recommend the Samsung HW-Q90R: https://www.rtings.com/soundbar/reviews/samsung/hw-q90r

Given the poor performance of nearly every AVR measured on ASR, i'm highly tempted to ditch my old 5.1 setup and buy the Samsung.

Keep things in perspective. In spite of their poor measurements they do, sometimes in some departments, better than some $15,000 DAC prized by audiophiles ...

A properly setup 5 channel plus more than one sub (At least 2) properly setup shall surpass in all performance parameters or metrics, any and all soundbar on the market. You shall lose the convenience perhaps the ergonomics. You will gai in performance ..
I am willing to be convinced of the increase in immersion that 7 channels produce or Atmos or Auro DTX or .. so far I am very satisfied by my HT system. I may get a cheap JBL powered speaker and use these as Ceiling channel in Atmos.. Netflix and Amazon represent my main cinema sources... They don't even advertised ever advertise 7.x , let alone Atmos .. HDR? Yes, 4K? Yes! .... I've never seen more than 5.1 advertised ...

 

[raistlin65]

I do feel that the makers seem to keep increasing the complexity, 5 channel then 6, then 7, then Atmos with 9,11,or even 13 channels! My feeling is that you get 95% of the home theater experience with a 5.1 channel setup and that the makers need to pursue wireless as much as possible to eliminate all those wires which admittedly doesn't eliminate the power issues. Also the planned obsolescence with the change to HDMI with changing versions and previously mentioned Atmos is a big turnoff for many.

I might even add that 5.2 is a good follow up for many people with living rooms with a lot of seating, over more speaker channels.

 

[xr100]

I might even add that 5.2 is a good follow up for many people with living rooms with a lot of seating, over more speaker channels.

Indeed not "SOTA" but more than adequate. The main area of concern to my mind, that I would like to see further exploration of, is the DIGITAL SIGNAL PROCESSING that happens within. I wouldn't be surprised if there are artifacts due to inadequate bit-depth somewhere in the processing chain and digital nasties for that or other reasons lurking within.

 

[hugodlc]

In recent years the big bottleneck has probably been at the sound mixing stage. In fact, to this day, it is surprising how many processes (plug-ins, etc.) are stuck with stereo only and of those that support multichannel not all support more than 5 channels...

This is not and has never been a bottleneck, when dealing with multichannel audio in a mixing stage, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to use 5.1 or wider plugins.

I believe the biggest problems have been stated above, and are convenience, knowledge, and physical room in our homes to bother having a true surround system.

 

[carlob]

If you have the money to buy a serious multichannel system you can pay someone to set it up for you if you don't have the time/knowledge to do it yourself.

 

[xr100]

This is not and has never been a bottleneck, when dealing with multichannel audio in a mixing stage, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to use 5.1 or wider plugins

Really? How, for example, are you going to pan and output 5.1 in a DAW that only supports stereo, and how are you going to listen to the output without having a suitable monitoring system?

Dolby Atmos Production Suite.

The point is, without the tools to create, for instance, Atmos content, there could not be any Atmos content.

"Positional" audio in the gaming world long pre-dated Atmos. And Atmos uses a "bed," which apart from other reasons for its existence, allows for existing multi-channel processes, such as reverb, that are stuck in the 5 or 7 channel world, to be used.

To this day, there are complaints about Atmos content that makes very limited use of overheads etc. And I wouldn't be surprised if "workflow" reasons are a key factor in this. Certainly Skywalker Sound installed the Neve 88RS analogue desk long after "Pro-Tools" was on the scene, so extensibility etc. for new formats...