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Home Theater Sound - All Is Lost

Robin L

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About the Prius thing ... Once you get there .. unless you are a fanatics such as us on this board .. You stay there.
Some of us Prius drivers find Mustangs offensive. All that testosterone laden noise pollution, the likelihood that the car will cut in front of you as a domination game. The Prius is an incredibly graceful creature at very low speeds. Quiet too, makes it easier to hear the car stereo.

As regards soundbars, for most people, the sound coming off the the flat panel display usually suffices. Yes, I know that sound usually isn't good, but most people are happy enough with it. We are the minority, we are the outliers.
 

Robin L

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I never felt the need for a center channel. The phantom center you get out of stereo speakers is quite nice. Never saw the point of them existing. Maybe if your room is like 25 feet wide or something I guess?
Had a 5.1 system for audio. With many 5.1 mixes, the center channel is required.
 

carlob

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Some of us Prius drivers find Mustangs offensive. All that testosterone laden noise pollution, the likelihood that the car will cut in front of you as a domination game. The Prius is an incredibly graceful creature at very low speeds. Quiet too, makes it easier to hear the car stereo.

As regards soundbars, for most people, the sound coming off the the flat panel display usually suffices. Yes, I know that sound usually isn't good, but most people are happy enough with it. We are the minority, we are the outliers.

At the end of the day somebody on this forum will tell you that you can "EQ" a Prius to drive as a Mustang (or the other way around) so it doesn't matter what you buy.
 

hugodlc

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Really? How, for example, are you going to pan and output 5.1 in a DAW that only supports stereo, and how are you going to listen to the output without having a suitable monitoring .

We don't use DAW's that are only stereo.

Of course we use full surround monitoring in the mixing stage, can't mix surround if we can't monitor surround. But not having or having limited true surround plugins has never been an issue.
 

Jimbob54

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I think the reason for the decline is even simpler: multichannel anything requires too much work. Selecting 5 speakers, positioning them, selecting an AVR, room calibration, subwoofer crawl, etc. Seriously time consuming not to mention overwhelming if you’re used to simple plug n play Sonos ecosystems
Lets not forget the ball ache that is the wires.
 

Berwhale

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Keep things in perspective. In spite of their poor measurements they do, sometimes in some departments, better than some $15,000 DAC prized by audiophiles ... :facepalm:

A properly setup 5 channel plus more than one sub :) (At least 2) properly setup shall surpass in all performance parameters or metrics, any and all soundbar on the market. You shall lose the convenience perhaps the ergonomics. You will gai in performance ..
I am willing to be convinced of the increase in immersion that 7 channels produce or Atmos or Auro DTX or .. so far I am very satisfied by my HT system. I may get a cheap JBL powered speaker and use these as Ceiling channel in Atmos.. Netflix and Amazon represent my main cinema sources... They don't even advertised ever advertise 7.x , let alone Atmos .. HDR? Yes, 4K? Yes! .... I've never seen more than 5.1 advertised ...

I don't disagree that a true multi-channel setup is superior. But as soundbars improve, the lower end AVRs, and the associated hassle to set them up, looks less and less attractive.

That said, I have just acquired an Onkyo TX-NR609 for £60 and will be replacing my older (and possibly faulty) TX-SR608 tomorrow. The owner of the NR609 had replaced it with a Sonos Playbar 5.1 setup, so maybe there is a silver lining to the adoption of soundbars by the masses :)
 

Robin L

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At the end of the day somebody on this forum will tell you that you can "EQ" a Prius to drive as a Mustang (or the other way around) so it doesn't matter what you buy.
What kills me is that Mustangs, initially, were Falcons with different bodywork.
 

xr100

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Of course we use full surround monitoring in the mixing stage, can't mix surround if we can't monitor surround. But not having or having limited true surround plugins has never been an issue.

In processing individual channels, even mono may well be all that's needed.

Doesn't really do much to elaborate upon what is needed to create, say, Dolby Atmos content, though.

And, whilst it might not *prevent* the creation of multi-channel content, the fact that so many processes are stereo-only is still a constraint on certain options and possibilities.
 

raistlin65

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Some of us Prius drivers find Mustangs offensive. All that testosterone laden noise pollution, the likelihood that the car will cut in front of you as a domination game. The Prius is an incredibly graceful creature at very low speeds. Quiet too, makes it easier to hear the car stereo.

Before long, you can buy a Mustang Mach-E and you can have the best of both worlds

And within this decade, I suspect that there will be 3.0 soundbars with comparable capabilities to an AVR that would allow someone to connect their Hsu VTF-3 (or two), a couple of good surrounds, run Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 or Dirac Live, and achieve similar audio quality as with a decent LRC separates and a receiver in the same price range. Not a dedicated home theater room equivalent, but a good living room 5.1 setup equivalent.

Of course they have to give up on the fake Atmos to do that. (sigh).
 

rwortman

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A friend of mine has one of these sound bars. He got it at a very reduced price as an initial crowd source investor. It costs more than most people’s discrete surround setups. It still can’t locate sounds as well as speakers all around but the sound quality is impressive, it is easier to set up and takes up a lot less space. https://us.creative.com/soniccarrier/
 

digicidal

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The advantage that soundbars have is in providing a similar footprint to a full in-wall installation - without the complexity and construction requirement of the latter. Not only (as several have mentioned in this thread) is physical space becoming more of an issue for those of more moderate means... but even for more affluent individuals, a more minimalist aesthetic is often preferred.

Really I think the problem is that the budget gear is so good at this point... that all but a very, very select few don't see any reason to want more. Back when a "cheap stereo" meant a boom-box, or a Realistic "rack" system and some horribly innacturate speakers that were mostly plastic - there was tons of room for improvement (and a sense of longing for decent sound). Now that a setup in the $100-500 range can give you ~80% of what was once limited to a dream hifi system... it's more than good enough for most. When I first listened to my JBL 305's that was what shocked me the most... that a $200 DAC and a $225 pair of monitors could sound so much better than almost everything I'd listened to in the previous 30 years.

Sure it's not the same "chills and thrills" I get when listening to my main system... but at ~5% of the cost - it's got 85% of the feels. And if you added a ~$500 sub to the mix.. probably closer to 95%.

A friend of mine has one of these sound bars. He got it at a very reduced price as an initial crowd source investor. It costs more than most people’s discrete surround setups. It still can’t locate sounds as well as speakers all around but the sound quality is impressive, it is easier to set up and takes up a lot less space. https://us.creative.com/soniccarrier/

I want to believe Creative has a new fantastic product... but there's just too many decades of disappointment keeping me from believing anything they say. $5K without any real specs/or demo potential requires a lot of faith. Obviously there's a huge difference between this and their overpriced and underwhelming PC speakers, soundcards, and DACs I've tried in the past... but not enough specs in the ad to believe in. Especially interested in how they fitted 1kW RMS amplification in the sound bar along with all those speakers... o_O the 600W in the sub, I'd almost believe - not quite but almost... but the bar... I need more than words!
 
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Frank Dernie

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"quad opposing" 8" drivers that were a scaled up variant of what Devialet makes
The 160mm diaphragms of the original, and still current, Devialet Phantoms have the same piston area of a traditional 8" driver FWIW so they effectively have 4 8" bass units in a pair.
 

xr100

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Really I think the problem is that the budget gear is so good at this point... that all but a very, very select few don't see any reason to want more. Back when a "cheap stereo" meant a boom-box, or a Realistic "rack" system and some horribly innacturate speakers that were mostly plastic - there was tons of room for improvement (and a sense of longing for decent sound). Now that a setup in the $100-500 range can give you ~80% of what was once limited to a dream hifi system... it's more than good enough for most. When I first listened to my JBL 305's that was what shocked me the most... that a $200 DAC and a $225 pair of monitors could sound so much better than almost everything I'd listened to in the previous 30 years.

After the 70's, it wasn't a problem to create "solid state" electronics that performed well, and in the speaker world, too, there had been various developments, including the Thiele-Small model, "new" materials and, presumably, advancements in manufacturing (injection moulding is one that I can think of?) By the 1990s high-performance delta-sigma DACs were available (Sony, for example.)

You could get very much better performance than a "MIDI" or "MINI" system a few decades ago for the same price or not that much more. The majority didn't bother! If you did your "homework" to find products that were solidly engineered, then the "law of diminishing returns" would hit hard very quickly. If you spent more and didn't do your "homework," then you'd potentially end up with junk no matter how much money was involved.

So it would seem to me to be a continuation of the same trend...

And now, we have all the DSP you could ever dream of to throw at loudspeaker management. Happy days. :)

To quote from Douglas Self: (Article from some years back...)

"In recent reviews it was easy to find a £795 preamplifier (Counterpoint SA7) that boasted a feeble 12dB disc overload margin, (another preamp costing £2040 struggled up to 15dB (Burmester 838/846) and another, costing £1550 that could only manage a 1kHz distortion performance of 1%; a lack of linearity that would have caused consternation ten years ago (Quicksilver). However, by paying £5700 one could inch this down to 0.3% (Audio Research M100-2 monoblocs). This does not mean it is impossible to buy an 'audiophile' amplifier that measures well; another example would be the preamplifier/power amplifier combination that provides a very respectable disc overload margin of 31 dB and 1 kHz rated-power distortion below 0.003%; the total cost being £725 (Audiolab 8000C/8000P). I believe this to be a representative sample, and we appear to be in the paradoxical situation that the most expensive equipment provides the worst objective performance. Whatever the rights and wrongs of subjective assessment, I think that most people would agree that this is a strange state of affairs. Finally, it is surely a morally ambiguous position to persuade non-technical people that to get a really good sound they have to buy £2000 preamps and so on, when both technical orthodoxy and common sense indicate that this is quite unnecessary."

I want to believe Creative has a new fantastic product... but there's just too many decades of disappointment keeping me from believing anything they say.

Creative Labs. are a strange company. Particularly when they were the "de facto" standard in consumer/gaming sound cards, they had very large considerable and economies of scale.

R&D wise, they acquired E-mu (and thus Dave Rossum et al.) For example, the E-mu 8000 chip was developed for the AWE-32 soundcard (1994.) Its feature set was basic compared to E-mu's high-end samplers, but it did include E-mu's patented 8-point interpolation (much better aliasing performance when pitch-shifting) and the original iteration of the card had 2xSIMM slots supporting up to 32Mb of RAM for loading samples. That capability would have required astonishingly expensive equipment only a few years earlier, and represented tremendous bang-for-the-buck. (There was also a SPDIF header on the card, straight from the E-mu 8000, so you could avoid Creative's dodgy analogue stages...)

Unfortunately, the full potential of their resources usually didn't manifest in their products. E-mu branded sound cards were one notable exception, high performance and value, although that's all gone now.

Creative have always been very, erm, "creative" with their marketing. They are still doing interesting things but with the soundbar you mention, like yourself, I'll believe it when I hear it...
 
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Frank Dernie

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If you have the money to buy a serious multichannel system you can pay someone to set it up for you if you don't have the time/knowledge to do it yourself.
I considered this. The cost of an expert setting it up and hiding all the cables behind the wall was well over half the budget and precluded the "serious" decoder which would have made it worth while.
Next time I re-decorate this end of the house I will get the cabling done then I may well buy some serious kit but first I will go for a bigger screen and try to work out how to get a good centre speaker that retracts along with the screen when not being used.
 

Frank Dernie

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What kills me is that Mustangs, initially, were Falcons with different bodywork.
For many decades the engines, transmissions and axles of US cars were unchanged with just bodywork and interior styling making next years model different. People changed car every year and this kept the running gear cheap and reliable.
 

raistlin65

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I
want to believe Creative has a new fantastic product... but there's just too many decades of disappointment keeping me from believing anything they say. $5K without any real specs/or demo potential requires a lot of faith. Obviously there's a huge difference between this and their overpriced and underwhelming PC speakers, soundcards, and DACs I've tried in the past... but not enough specs in the ad to believe in. Especially interested in how they fitted 1kW RMS amplification in the sound bar along with all those speakers... o_O the 600W in the sub, I'd almost believe - not quite but almost... but the bar... I need more than words!

I would have more confidence in the design efforts that went into that soundbar if it did not have the upfiring Atmos speakers built-in. If and how much Atmos upfiring speakers accomplish anything depends upon the distance from the listening position and the height of the ceiling (and assuming the ceiling is not sloped or otherwise problematic).

So including upfiring speakers in a soundbar means that the designer knows that it cannot work for some / many of the consumers that buy the soundbar. And yet, I don't have to read the marketing copy to know that it's singing the praises of the Atmos capability without warning people it simply may not work for them.
 

xr100

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I would have more confidence in the design efforts that went into that soundbar if it did not have the upfiring Atmos speakers built-in. If and how much Atmos upfiring speakers accomplish anything depends upon the distance from the listening position and the height of the ceiling (and assuming the ceiling is not sloped or otherwise problematic).

One problem I can think of is a key "cue" for height information is the shoulder reflection time. So, for that reason alone, coming up with a generic "HRTF" could pose problems.

AFAIK Yamaha's "YSP" soundbars are totally dependent on room reflections and good luck with finding a suitable "high WAF" living room environment/layout that it will work with. But then again, if you consider the extremely dodgy "discrete" surround layouts of many "average consumer" installs, then I suspect that it won't bother the average user too much.
 

xr100

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For many decades the engines, transmissions and axles of US cars were unchanged with just bodywork and interior styling making next years model different. People changed car every year and this kept the running gear cheap and reliable.

Strategy still used with "platforms," "engines" and so on out of the "parts bin" that are combined with external/internal styling to create various models.
 
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rwortman

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I spent a couple of hours listening to music from that Creative sound bar, at times very loudly with no sound of strain. Prior to that I had never heard of it. My friend didn’t tell me about the brand, just that he had participated in funding the initial run of the best sound bar in existence. I went over there expecting it be just another sound bar. OK if you can’t be bothered with a “real” HT system. Whether the up firing drivers create a realistic height channel, I can’t say. We didn’t watch movies. The sound quality just listening to stereo files was better than any sound bar I ever heard and better than many stereo systems. Certainly an order of magnitude better than certain high priced lifestyle all in one systems. I was surprised to find out who was selling it. It may fail simply because of their reputation. It’s not anything I would buy but if I knew someone with relatively deep pockets that wanted seriously good sound that took no more space than a shelf under his TV I would recommend this in a heartbeat. BTW my friend paid half of what they are asking. From what I heard it would not be easy to beat it buying speakers, a sub, and amplification at that price. For 5k, yes, but not dramatically better and more complicated and taking up more space.

I picked up a small receiver and a pair a 5” two way bookshelf speakers from a young couple with two $50k cars in the garage. I asked what they were replacing them with. Bose wave radio because a receiver and two shoebox sized speakers took up too much space in their 3000 square foot house. Even people with large budgets want sound in small packages.
 

stevenswall

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The 160mm diaphragms of the original, and still current, Devialet Phantoms have the same piston area of a traditional 8" driver FWIW so they effectively have 4 8" bass units in a pair.

Hmm, I wonder how far you can go with that, without affecting the sound? Could they extrude it even further and make it an ovoid kind of shape viewed from the front? Either way, I think their 4" drivers on the Phantom Reactor would be easier to fit. If surface area matters more than the diameter, hopefully other companies stop making flat or shallow woofers and make large domes.
 
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