Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

[Cascabel]

Hi guys. I'm a noob here (just created an account), but I've been lurking a ton and always use this site for checking out headphones before auditioning them (to narrow down my choices).

I just have a (probably dumb) question: how do I EQ the Sundara (or any headphones, really) not to conform to any "target" but just to eliminate their "flaws"? For example, the Sundara has a harsh (to me) treble peak and the review measured some bass is lacking. I d like to correct both those points while still retaining the Sundara's "default sound." (if that makes any sense?). For now, I'm using oratory's presets (they're honestly amazing) but they're obviously tuned to Harman. I'd like to retain the HP's natural sound but just eliminating the more major flaws.

Unfortunately, I only have EQ APO and I don't have any measurement rigs. Is that still possible? I also don't know if I can trust my ears since I'm not confident I know enough to do that. How do I go about doing this? I appreciate your inputs.

Edit: basically, instead of relying solely on what sounds good to me, I'd like to be able to eliminate the parts that are considered flaws while still retaining the "stock" sound. I'm scared if I do them by ear I'd EQ them too little or I'd EQ them too much that they'd sound a but far from their stock sound.

 

[GaryH]

how do I EQ the Sundara (or any headphones, really) not to conform to any "target" but just to eliminate their "flaws"?

That's exactly what Oratory's EQs to the Harman target aim to do, as this target is preferred / perceived neutral (i.e. flaws eliminated) to the vast majority of listeners. He includes descriptions of which filters to adjust in the bottom right of his EQ pdfs if you feel the need to fine-tune.

 

[Cascabel]

That's exactly what Oratory's EQs to the Harman target aim to do, as this target is preferred / perceived neutral (i.e. flaws eliminated) to the vast majority of listeners. He includes descriptions of which filters to adjust in the bottom right of his EQ pdfs if you feel the need to fine-tune.

I see. So all I have to do is lower the bass (I think it's too bassy for me). Appreciate the answer! This makes things a lot easier for me.

 

[solderdude]

One might think that is the case but the Harman curve isn't just a difference in elevated bass but also the upper mids treble range and it is not accurate in correcting the headphone above 6kHz. The most obvious thing is the elevated bass, just lower that bass boost a few dB. Not all people like the bass boost as is clear from the Harman research. Some even desire more bass boost by the way.
That's where one of the major 'flaws' is in the majority of hifiman headphones happens to be.
It just isn't visible on industry standard fixtures nor are they designed to be accurate above say 8kHz anyway.
Fortunately a lot of owners are not bothered by the peaking in the 8-10kHz range and even actually like it as for them it 'enhances' details, yet others hear that as 'sharpness'.
When one is bothered by the (not seen in measurements) peak one can simply add a bell filter there. When one is not bothered by it or even likes it then no need to do anything about it.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

One might think that is the case but the Harman curve isn't just a difference in elevated bass but also the upper mids treble range and it is not accurate in correcting the headphone above 6kHz. The most obvious thing is the elevated bass, just lower that bass boost a few dB. Not all people like the bass boost as is clear from the Harman research. Some even desire more bass boost by the way.
That's where one of the major 'flaws' is in the majority of hifiman headphones happens to be.
It just isn't visible on industry standard fixtures nor are they designed to be accurate above say 8kHz anyway.
Fortunately a lot of owners are not bothered by the peaking in the 8-10kHz range and even actually like it as for them it 'enhances' details, yet others hear that as 'sharpness'.
When one is bothered by the (not seen in measurements) peak one can simply add a bell filter there. When one is not bothered by it or even likes it then no need to do anything about it.

Can you please remind me why headphones FR measurement is less accurate after a certain frequency range(let's say 6kHz in this case)?

 

[solderdude]

Because of the used pinna and ear-canal simulation.
That simulation, however, ensures a more 'human-like' response between 1kHz and 6kHz.
Every upside has a downside.
I know officially the accuracy is limited to 8kHz but in reality it is already increasingly inaccurate above 6kHz.

The BK5128 kind of 'promises' a better accuracy up to 10kHz and a 'more human alike acoustic impedance simulation' up to 20kHz which is higher than the GRAS acoustic impedance simulation.
That acoustic impedance accuracy, however, is not the same as the deviation in frequency response.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

Because of the used pinna and ear-canal simulation.
That simulation, however, ensures a more 'human-like' response between 1kHz and 6kHz.
Every upside has a downside.
I know officially the accuracy is limited to 8kHz but in reality it is already increasingly inaccurate above 6kHz.

The BK5128 kind of 'promises' a better accuracy up to 10kHz and a 'more human alike acoustic impedance simulation' up to 20kHz which is higher than the GRAS acoustic impedance simulation.
That acoustic impedance accuracy, however, is not the same as the deviation in frequency response.

thank you for the explanation. do you have an article about those subjects in your website? or have there been any in-depth masterthread about this here? I would love to refresh my memory and broaden my knowledge a little more .

 

[solderdude]

I have not written any articles about it.
There is plenty of info to be found on this subject though in the countless research that has been done on fixtures and human hearing.

Industry standard fixtures are just that. They comply to a standard which describes how the fixture has to be built and its tolerances. This is so that measurements made on fixtures that comply to that standard are comparable. Some people read more into this than what they are designed for and Harman used such a fixture for their research.
To match that it is important to use the same fixture. In Harman research case this is not really possible as they used a (somewhat) different pinna so results differ somewhat (but not very much).
That research done on that particular fixture made it a well known body of research. Of course that fixture was chosen as it made the most sense to use among some of the other fixtures around. It is limited in accuracy within the audible band but fortunately overall tonality is mostly determined by frequencies below 6kHz. Above that is sibilance, sharpness and dull sound (too little treble). That just can't be accurately measured for all headphones and people but at least it is comparable within that standard. Which is what standards are all about.

Sadly, no one really likes to talk about the limitations and thus most people regard the plots as 'absolute truth' and an (extremely smoothed) overall preference curve that seems to work for a majority of people as THE standard to comply to. That target only serves as a guideline not as 'absolute truth'. It is important to keep that in mind.

It is good to have standards as they are described so well that research is comparable. It is just limited in ways the majority of people just not realizes or chooses to ignore.
Professionals using those fixtures, in general, are well aware of the limitations but using a standard makes more sense than just 'winging it' (like I do).

 

[Music1969]

Has anyone measured their Sundara step response?

Mine seems to be inverted polarity? @solderdude

 

[solderdude]

check it versus a known good headphone.

The Sundara's I tested were all properly wired.
Only the HE400SE was inverse polarity.
You can also look at the phase plot.

 

[Music1969]

Only the HE400SE was inverse polarity.

Audible with planars? Single driver each ear

 

[GaryH]

Yes (real, normal, acoustic music, not a test signal).

 

[solderdude]

Audible with planars? Single driver each ear

Audible with special test signals and very specific songs when comparing directly... yes.
Regardless if they are planar or not.
Older AKG K240 and some other headphones are phase inverted as well.

With the vast majority of music... no not audible.
That is... as long as both drivers are phase inverted.
It becomes a different story when only 1 driver is phase inverted.

Check another headphone. It may be your test fixture or source that is phase inverted.

With the HE400SE no one noticed, not even in measurements so that tells you it isn't a practical issue/problem.

 

[Haider]

Can someone recommend a desktop DAC/amp with USB input that would make the most of the Sundara? Will pair with a PC or tablet? I have a E1da 9038d (180 mW into 32Ohm) thumb dac/amp. Ideally I'd like more power.

 

[Music1969]

Can someone recommend a desktop DAC/amp with USB input that would make the most of the Sundara? Will pair with a PC or tablet? I have a E1da 9038d (180 mW into 32Ohm) thumb dac/amp. Ideally I'd like more power.

You didn't mention budget but RME ADI-2 FS DAC. Even used / 2nd hand always come up

Make sure it has "FS" on the front - this was a nice upgrade in their clocking technology.

Even features 5 bands (+2) parametric EQ built-in

 

[Haider]

You didn't mention budget but RME ADI-2 FS DAC. Even used / 2nd hand always come up

Make sure it has "FS" on the front - this was a nice upgrade in their clocking technology.

Even features 5 bands (+2) parametric EQ built-in

Not really sure how much I should spend. I was thinking of building a balanced "system". Something that kind of matches the Sundara.

 

[bodhi]

Not really sure how much I should spend. I was thinking of building a balanced "system". Something that kind of matches the Sundara.

My standard recommendation is Topping DX3 Pro+. It gets the job done and I'm pretty sure you won't get better sound no matter how much you spend.

If the price is no big deal to you then RME is good choice: you won't get tempted to upgrade again.

 

[Haider]

Hi,

I have been offered a used Arcam rhead https://www.arcam.co.uk/product,accessories,accessories,rhead.htm for £75. I read the review sounds good at 1.1W so x6 more powerful, will that be x6 louder? From what I have read planars need current as well as power. Does the Arcam produce enough current to drive the Sundara headphones well? The chap I'm buying it from bought a new crack amp8-(...

 

[staticV3]

I read the review sounds good at 1.1W so x6 more powerful, will that be x6 louder?

6x the power will give you about 70% more volume, so less than twice as loud.
Though I'm not sure what "x6" in your post is referring to. Relative to what? Is that the Amp's Voltage gain perhaps?

Does the Arcam produce enough current to drive the Sundara headphones well?

According to Arcam's specs, the rHead can output almost exactly 6V at 39Ω, or about 917mW:


That will drive the Sundara 2020 to 119.5dB SPL Peak.

For reference, that's literally fifteen times as loud as my usual listening volume!

 

[Haider]

6x the power will give you about 70% more volume, so less than twice as loud.
Though I'm not sure what "x6" in your post is referring to. Relative to what? Is that the Amp's Voltage gain perhaps?


According to Arcam's specs, the rHead can output almost exactly 6V at 39Ω, or about 917mW:
View attachment 304753

That will drive the Sundara 2020 to 119.5dB SPL Peak.

For reference, that's literally fifteen times as loud as my usual listening volume!

Thanks for the info. Just wondering where did you find that out from. All I could see for the rHead was for 32 Ohm it makes 1.1W. I remember from Physics P=VI or P=current squared x r

I'm comparing everything to the e1da 9038d https://e1dashz.wixsite.com/index/9038d 180mW@32 ohms