Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

[odyo]

Maybe the Element II could not deliver the current the DCA asks at high volume? The DCA is a very low impedance headphone. When you drive it hard, bass notes will require much more current than when you drive a high impedance headphone. The result could be that the voltage will drop suddenly when there is not enough current available.

If it can't deliver the current wouldn't it be distorting/clipping ?

 

[staticV3]

When you drive it hard, bass notes will require much more current than when you drive a high impedance headphone.

Why would bass notes require more current than any other notes on a planar magnetic headphone with flat impedance response?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Why would bass notes require more current than any other notes on a planar magnetic headphone with flat impedance response?

fact of life!
something to do with elasticity of air and our hearing capabilities of different frequencies means you need tp move a lot of air to produce lower actaves.
Ever wondered why tweeters are so tiny and woofers are so large?

 

[staticV3]

fact of life!

Then here's my counter argument:

This is, as far as I understand, the frequency response of the DCA Stealth when fed a constant signal amplitude (Vrms) with variable frequency:


Due to the Stealth's flat impedance response, the constant Vrms should equate to constant Arms as well:


Compensate for human hearing and you get this perceived frequency response:


Conclusion: constant voltage (Vrms) and constant current (Arms) will result in constant perceived loudness across all frequencies.
In other words, a 20Hz sine wave and a 20KHz sine wave of equal perceived loudness will result in the same current draw from the Amp.

An I misunderstanding something?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Then here's my counter argument:
An I misunderstanding something?

A minor one.
Music spectrum, if you watch it on an unweighted analyzer, is mostly at low frequencies, by a large magnitude.
See this:



This is screenshot of an unweighted music spectrum.
Most of the power is in lower notes.
Scale on the left is in dB - meaning 10dB is 10 times the power, 20dB is 100 times the power!

In an orchestra, a tiny tap on a Triangle, makes a loud enough sound that can be heard all the way to the back - in comparison they need to really hit a Timpani with a big hammer to get as loud a sound.

 

[odyo]

We need @solderdude in this matter. Afaik, planar with a flat impedance shouldn't require more power for bass notes. The myth comes from dynamic drivers which shoot up impedance in bass notes.

 

[solderdude]

KenTajali is right.
In music there is more energy present in the bass so most power will be in the lower octaves.

staticV3 is also right. With white noise or a sweep (measurements) all frequencies have the same amplitude and energy when the impedance is flat. (at least on average over time for white noise)
When the impedance has a peak in the impedance then during the test those frequencies (usually somewhere in the lows and upper treble) requires less current and thus less power.

However, in most cases the current decrease is no more than half (-6dB) where in music signals the amplitude in the low frequency content usually is much more than 6dB opposite the higher frequencies.

 

[RHO]

Why would bass notes require more current than any other notes on a planar magnetic headphone with flat impedance response?

Because bass notes have a higher amplitude in music (in general).

 

[Ken Tajalli]

My Sundara has been benched since I got the Edition XS (a few months).
Last night I saw it just sitting there, so I thought I give it a try.
Before I go further, in the past few months I have been tinkering with some DIY headphone cabling.
Short story, I settled for single solid silver core per conductor. I made three cables , one with 0.3mm pure silver wire, another with 0.4mm and third one with 0.5mm.
Now I come from that school that Knows wire is wire, all else is snake-oil! but my ears have convinced me otherwise. I chose silver, not for its magical properties ! only that it is available , it is cheap and soft! copper is stiffer.
I actually measured the cables too.
DC resistance was 0.15 ohm to just under 0.1 ohm per conductor with termination . Capacitance around 10 to 20pF between conductors with negligible inductance.
Any of the three sounds superior to stock cables and any other cable I had available, 0.4mm sounds slightly better than 0.3mm and 0.5mm sounds better than 0.4mm.
Going back to my Sundara - I tried them with my 0.5mm cable.
Sundara sounded lovely! OK Edition XS is better on every aspect, but Sundara being just a little behind. I happily use it for long sessions without second thought.
I had setup an EQ curve on Neutron media player for it - not needed anymore, Sundara is fine as is, indeed EQ kills the sound stage a little, not worth the price.
Bottom line, Sundara owners out there, treasure it, beautiful headphone.
So are Edition XS, though I had to modify the XS, Sundara didn't need anything.

 

[phoenixsong]

My Sundara has been benched since I got the Edition XS (a few months).
Last night I saw it just sitting there, so I thought I give it a try.
Before I go further, in the past few months I have been tinkering with some DIY headphone cabling.
Short story, I settled for single solid silver core per conductor. I made three cables , one with 0.3mm pure silver wire, another with 0.4mm and third one with 0.5mm.
Now I come from that school that Knows wire is wire, all else is snake-oil! but my ears have convinced me otherwise. I chose silver, not for its magical properties ! only that it is available , it is cheap and soft! copper is stiffer.
I actually measured the cables too.
DC resistance was 0.15 ohm to just under 0.1 ohm per conductor with termination . Capacitance around 10 to 20pF between conductors with negligible inductance.
Any of the three sounds superior to stock cables and any other cable I had available, 0.4mm sounds slightly better than 0.3mm and 0.5mm sounds better than 0.4mm.
Going back to my Sundara - I tried them with my 0.5mm cable.
Sundara sounded lovely! OK Edition XS is better on every aspect, but Sundara being just a little behind. I happily use it for long sessions without second thought.
I had setup an EQ curve on Neutron media player for it - not needed anymore, Sundara is fine as is, indeed EQ kills the sound stage a little, not worth the price.
Bottom line, Sundara owners out there, treasure it, beautiful headphone.
So are Edition XS, though I had to modify the XS, Sundara didn't need anything.

Any measurements for the stock cable?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Any measurements for the stock cable?

This is what I put on another forum last Dec:
If you feel like reading the original

Edition XS bundled cable -
full length resistance Lead=0.15R Ground=0.2R ground to ground @ earjacks=0.5R
Capacitance ground-lead L=160pF R=190pF left-right leakage=140pF



Focal Clear bundled cable
full length resistance Lead=0.15R Ground=0.15R ground to ground @ earjacks=0.3R
Capacitance ground-lead L=70pF R=70pF left-right leakage=20pF

 

[RHO]

My Sundara has been benched since I got the Edition XS (a few months).
Last night I saw it just sitting there, so I thought I give it a try.
Before I go further, in the past few months I have been tinkering with some DIY headphone cabling.
Short story, I settled for single solid silver core per conductor. I made three cables , one with 0.3mm pure silver wire, another with 0.4mm and third one with 0.5mm.
Now I come from that school that Knows wire is wire, all else is snake-oil! but my ears have convinced me otherwise. I chose silver, not for its magical properties ! only that it is available , it is cheap and soft! copper is stiffer.
I actually measured the cables too.
DC resistance was 0.15 ohm to just under 0.1 ohm per conductor with termination . Capacitance around 10 to 20pF between conductors with negligible inductance.
Any of the three sounds superior to stock cables and any other cable I had available, 0.4mm sounds slightly better than 0.3mm and 0.5mm sounds better than 0.4mm.
Going back to my Sundara - I tried them with my 0.5mm cable.
Sundara sounded lovely! OK Edition XS is better on every aspect, but Sundara being just a little behind. I happily use it for long sessions without second thought.
I had setup an EQ curve on Neutron media player for it - not needed anymore, Sundara is fine as is, indeed EQ kills the sound stage a little, not worth the price.
Bottom line, Sundara owners out there, treasure it, beautiful headphone.
So are Edition XS, though I had to modify the XS, Sundara didn't need anything.

You surely tested this blind and have 9/10 correct results to show us those differences are real, right?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

You surely tested this blind and have 9/10 correct results to show us those differences are real, right?

Surely!
and to adhere to strict "Single Blind test criteria " , public records were checked for marriage certificate on the blind test subject, and he further assured he wasn't seeing anyone!


How can I do a blind test on two headphone cables, one soft and rubbery, the other rather stiff DIY?
I am at a loss as to why there are differences in sound!
they all have impedances in miliohm region with capacitances in pF region, what gives? I don't know. Am I imagining it? highly unlikely , the differences are too pronounced and re-creatable.
Mind you, the magic is in single-solid-core. Silver is just for convinience! copper sounded the same, I did try.

 

[RHO]

I am at a loss as to why there are differences in sound!

Because there aren't any. It's all imaginary.
Nothing to be ashamed of. It happens to me all the time.
At least I'm aware of it and realize that that is what I'm hearing. Most of the time some quick half blind check resolves the issue.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Because there aren't any. It's all imaginary.
Nothing to be ashamed of. It happens to me all the time.
At least I'm aware of it and realize that that is what I'm hearing. Most of the time some quick half blind check resolves the issue.

Could it be that you are imagining that I am imagining it?!
After all it is all imaginary.

 

[staticV3]

If there was even one successful blind test proving audible differences between different cables (copper/silver/gold, litz or not, different AWG, different core counts), then we might be more inclined to believe your sighted impressions.
But alas...

 

[Ken Tajalli]

If there was even one successful blind test proving audible differences between different cables (copper/silver/gold, litz or not, different AWG, different core counts), then we might be more inclined to believe your sighted impressions.
But alas...

Believe it or not.
Thank god pioneer scientists in history were not desciples of the church of "Can't measure it = Doesn't exist".
Tell me, if I had declared that I indeed had done double blind test and 9/10 results were repeatable! wouldn't you guys have argued with me about the short comings of my blind tests and the results to death??!
Eventually you would have dismissed it with ridicule!
Maybe, just maybe that's why such blind test results (you believe) don't exist! because they have been disputed to death!

At any rate, the cable clause was just a declaration to say, I didn't re-listen to my Sundara with stock cable - I was just praising the Sundara, it just got side-tracked.

 

[RHO]

Tell me, if I had declared that I indeed had done double blind test and 9/10 results were repeatable! wouldn't you guys have argued with me about the short comings of my blind tests and the results to death??!

Depends on how you would have presented the results.
I would be very intrigued to say the least. There would still be a chance that you would have guessed right. Very small but still possible.

We do not need to investigate every crazy idea someone thinks off, to be very confident some things are true or not. From every other thing we know about certain subjects we can conclude that certain propositions about that subject are very close to impossible.

Like someone claiming to have seen a rock fall up into the sky. From everything we know about gravity, that would be so unlikely to be true that we can just dismiss it. Until someone provides us with very convincing evidence to the contrary.

 

[RHO]

Eventually you would have dismissed it with ridicule!
Maybe, just maybe that's why such blind test results (you believe) don't exist! because they have been disputed to death!

Than maybe, just maybe, those subjectivists should learn how to conduct a proper blind test. It's not THAT hard. But for some strange reason they always seem to mess it up.

 

[odyo]

Extremely thin and messed up wires take over inside of the cups with Hifimans. So there is already a bottleneck inside, i don't think your cable can change that. After realizing this, all the difference you hear can magically disappear.

This is Ananda's 3.5mm connector