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Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

odyo

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So i got a chance to listen the famous Sundara. My first impression is disappointing to be honest. Quite bright, sharp and shouty. I need some adaptation to judge it's technicalities but it didn't seem that good. It's quite forward headphone with very upfront vocals and odd treble peaks. I've checked the measurements in all websites and every measurement except amir's indicates almost perfect adherence to harman target which i don't hear at all. Amir's measurement more on point with that treble peak. Mind you i'm a guy who listens and loves DT 770 so i'm not bright sensitive at all. Soundstage is quite small, nowhere near DT 770. Sub bass isn't there. Comfort is bad. Quite high clamping force and very stiff feeling doesn't blend in and conform your head. Bad build, feels like it will age pretty bad pretty quick.

From my memory, the difference is quite huge between this and Ananda. Like it or hate it, Ananda have a magic. Sundara have a bit better dynamics that's all. Technical performance and soundstage quite a bit better on Ananda. Ananda also sounds kinda beautiful. It has some kind of sweetness to it. Sundara is more aggressive but in a bad way i feel. Ananda offers a unique and impressive performance. Sundara sounds pretty average. The soundstage is pretty restricted and every instrument fights for their space. It's like a chair catching game.

From my memory, DT 1990 destroys this.

I was a bit tired and sensitive during my time with the Sundara. I will give it more time later and try some EQ too. This is just my very first impression.
 

Bernard23

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So i got a chance to listen the famous Sundara. My first impression is disappointing to be honest. Quite bright, sharp and shouty. I need some adaptation to judge it's technicalities but it didn't seem that good. It's quite forward headphone with very upfront vocals and odd treble peaks. I've checked the measurements in all websites and every measurement except amir's indicates almost perfect adherence to harman target which i don't hear at all. Amir's measurement more on point with that treble peak. Mind you i'm a guy who listens and loves DT 770 so i'm not bright sensitive at all. Soundstage is quite small, nowhere near DT 770. Sub bass isn't there. Comfort is bad. Quite high clamping force and very stiff feeling doesn't blend in and conform your head. Bad build, feels like it will age pretty bad pretty quick.

From my memory, the difference is quite huge between this and Ananda. Like it or hate it, Ananda have a magic. Sundara have a bit better dynamics that's all. Technical performance and soundstage quite a bit better on Ananda. Ananda also sounds kinda beautiful. It has some kind of sweetness to it. Sundara is more aggressive but in a bad way i feel. Ananda offers a unique and impressive performance. Sundara sounds pretty average. The soundstage is pretty restricted and every instrument fights for their space. It's like a chair catching game.

From my memory, DT 1990 destroys this.

I was a bit tired and sensitive during my time with the Sundara. I will give it more time later and try some EQ too. This is just my very first impression.
Interesting. I had a pair of DT770 for a few days, and for me the Sundara are in another league of just about everything. That said, I do EQ, and I always use crossfeed. Instrument separation is one of their strongpoints (compared to hemp and 650, both of which I much prefer also than the 770).
Just shows huh, these rabbit holes aren't always so obvious.
 

phoenixsong

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So i got a chance to listen the famous Sundara. My first impression is disappointing to be honest. Quite bright, sharp and shouty. I need some adaptation to judge it's technicalities but it didn't seem that good. It's quite forward headphone with very upfront vocals and odd treble peaks. I've checked the measurements in all websites and every measurement except amir's indicates almost perfect adherence to harman target which i don't hear at all. Amir's measurement more on point with that treble peak. Mind you i'm a guy who listens and loves DT 770 so i'm not bright sensitive at all. Soundstage is quite small, nowhere near DT 770. Sub bass isn't there. Comfort is bad. Quite high clamping force and very stiff feeling doesn't blend in and conform your head. Bad build, feels like it will age pretty bad pretty quick.

From my memory, the difference is quite huge between this and Ananda. Like it or hate it, Ananda have a magic. Sundara have a bit better dynamics that's all. Technical performance and soundstage quite a bit better on Ananda. Ananda also sounds kinda beautiful. It has some kind of sweetness to it. Sundara is more aggressive but in a bad way i feel. Ananda offers a unique and impressive performance. Sundara sounds pretty average. The soundstage is pretty restricted and every instrument fights for their space. It's like a chair catching game.

From my memory, DT 1990 destroys this.

I was a bit tired and sensitive during my time with the Sundara. I will give it more time later and try some EQ too. This is just my very first impression.
Those were my impressions too (original Sundara, not the most recent updated one). Are you perhaps wearing glasses/spectacles as well? :)
 

odyo

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Interesting. I had a pair of DT770 for a few days, and for me the Sundara are in another league of just about everything. That said, I do EQ, and I always use crossfeed. Instrument separation is one of their strongpoints (compared to hemp and 650, both of which I much prefer also than the 770).
Just shows huh, these rabbit holes aren't always so obvious.
I need to listen more to judge better honestly. It was a quick impressions. I think the comfort affects my perception. Sundara feels like M50X to me which i hate. Sounds similar too(from my memory) but better of course. DT 770 quite different. It has soundstage and space. More laidback and diffuse? sound.
Those were my impressions too (original Sundara, not the most recent updated one). Are you perhaps wearing glasses/spectacles as well? :)
Nope nothing.
 

radix

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So i got a chance to listen the famous Sundara. My first impression is disappointing to be honest. Quite bright, sharp and shouty. I need some adaptation to judge it's technicalities but it didn't seem that good. It's quite forward headphone with very upfront vocals and odd treble peaks. I've checked the measurements in all websites and every measurement except amir's indicates almost perfect adherence to harman target which i don't hear at all. Amir's measurement more on point with that treble peak. Mind you i'm a guy who listens and loves DT 770 so i'm not bright sensitive at all. Soundstage is quite small, nowhere near DT 770. Sub bass isn't there. Comfort is bad. Quite high clamping force and very stiff feeling doesn't blend in and conform your head. Bad build, feels like it will age pretty bad pretty quick.

I also have the DT770 Pro and the Sundara (2020 ear pads). I find the Sundara a softer fit than the DT770. The DT770 ear pads are maybe a bit cooler, being a type of cloth, vs. the Sundara. It seems like I have almost the opposite reaction to the DT770 and Sundara than you do.

I found the Sundara (and DT770) both EQ very well. I do not have a small soundstage feeling with the Sundara.

Marc
 
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odyo

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More notes:

60-70hz region feels more elevated than the rest of the bass region(20-200) to my ear which results in a bit one note bass.

Sundara is quite a bit different than the Ananda. These aren't similar headphones at all. I'd say Sundara more similar to DT 1990. So i don't know what people were thinking when they say ''they are similar but Ananda just a bit better'' or things like that. It's like fundamentally different.

Vocal clarity, texture, nuance good.

Stock tonality is good. Better than Ananda.

It's an engaging headphone. There is always a one note thumping bass, zoomed in and clear vocals

Treble sounds artificial? Timbre? I don't know.

The headphone is growing on me. I see what it's going for.

It has a more zoomed in presentation. Feels a bit restricted. Like you play a video game with low field of view.

Works better at higher volumes. DT 770 works better at lower volumes.
 

radix

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I measured the headphone pressure for my DT770 and Sundara using a few thick books and a kitchen scale. The books measured 5.5" (14 cm) thick.

IMG_3110.jpeg


The DT770 came in at 589g and the Sundara came in at 442g of clamping pressure.

IMG_3111.jpeg


IMG_3109.jpeg
 

odyo

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I also have the DT770 Pro and the Sundara (2020 ear pads). I find the Sundara a softer fit than the DT770. The DT770 ear pads are maybe a bit cooler, being a type of cloth, vs. the Sundara. It seems like I have almost the opposite reaction to the DT770 and Sundara than you do.

I found the Sundara (and DT770) both EQ very well. I do not have a small soundstage feeling with the Sundara.

Marc
DT 770 have a slightly bigger earpad opening and angled/curvy cushions which conforms my head very well. Sundara feels like it keeps it's shape on my head and press on my earlobes. It's stiffer. Burn in may help. My DT 770 quite old and i customize it's clamping force however i want so it may not be a fair comparison but still 770 is more friendly for bigger ears.
 

odyo

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I measured the headphone pressure for my DT770 and Sundara using a few thick books and a kitchen scale. The books measured 5.5" (14 cm) thick.

View attachment 187359

The DT770 came in at 589g and the Sundara came in at 442g of clamping pressure.

View attachment 187360

View attachment 187361
That's a cool test :) Clamping force is more about the feeling in my opinion. These headphones doesn't apply the pressure to same spots on my head. Weight distribution, pressure distribution, skin sensitivity other factors.
 

radix

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DT 770 have a slightly bigger earpad opening and angled/curvy cushions which conforms my head very well. Sundara feels like it keeps it's shape on my head and press on my earlobes. It's stiffer. Burn in may help. My DT 770 quite old and i customize it's clamping force however i want so it may not be a fair comparison but still 770 is more friendly for bigger ears.

Yes, I believe the DT770 is a deeper and bigger ear cup. I do like the bigger, deeper feeling of the DT770.
 

MrBrainwash

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I'd say Sundara more similar to DT 1990.

From my memory, DT 1990 destroys this.

<scraching on the head>

I didn't fall in love with Sundara for the first listen. It took time for me to appreciate them. I guess brain must burn in to someting that sounds good too or maybe this is even more true to good sounding headphones that don't focus on grabing attention with some special effects.

Tastes changes over time. DT1990 for me was instant love. I still love them becouse of some special effects I don't get from other headphones but Sundara is superior to me in terms of pure sound quality. Both have good soundstage, imaging qualities. Although they share some similarities (as open headphones?) but for me they have quite different sound presentation and Sundara is more tonally correct. Bass is strong point in Sundara but need EQ to shine. I understand why someone would not like hifimans planar bass but for me it's different story. :)
 

Roland68

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I measured the headphone pressure for my DT770 and Sundara using a few thick books and a kitchen scale. The books measured 5.5" (14 cm) thick.

View attachment 187359

The DT770 came in at 589g and the Sundara came in at 442g of clamping pressure.

View attachment 187360

View attachment 187361
Unfortunately, the test is not very suitable.
The test works for the DT770 and all other headphones that only have one bow.
For the hi-fi man Sundara, and everyone else who also has a headband in addition to the bow, this test doesn't work, or doesn't work well.
Gravity and the pull of the headband increase the pressure on the ears. This means that the adjustments of the headband, ear cups and the correct positioning of the headphones on the head have a much greater impact than with headphones with just the bow.
 

radix

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Unfortunately, the test is not very suitable.
The test works for the DT770 and all other headphones that only have one bow.
For the hi-fi man Sundara, and everyone else who also has a headband in addition to the bow, this test doesn't work, or doesn't work well.
Gravity and the pull of the headband increase the pressure on the ears. This means that the adjustments of the headband, ear cups and the correct positioning of the headphones on the head have a much greater impact than with headphones with just the bow.

Yes, it really only measures how I had my pair of headphones adjusted. And yes, weight differences matter. I was mostly interested if I could measure something that collaborated my sense that the Sundara were lighter on my head than the DT770. I was trying to remove the effect of gravity to just see what the clamp pressure was.

I don't follow why a single headband vs headband + bow would cause the clamping pressure to be different.

Anyway, this does stray a bit form the Sundara review, though I would like to understand the process more.
 

odyo

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<scraching on the head>
Sound characteristics. I think it's obvious what i mean.

I didn't fall in love with Sundara for the first listen. It took time for me to appreciate them. I guess brain must burn in to someting that sounds good too or maybe this is even more true to good sounding headphones that don't focus on grabing attention with some special effects.
Sundara is very attention grabing. What you consider special effects on 1990 ?
Tastes changes over time. DT1990 for me was instant love. I still love them becouse of some special effects I don't get from other headphones but Sundara is superior to me in terms of pure sound quality. Both have good soundstage, imaging qualities. Although they share some similarities (as open headphones?) but for me they have quite different sound presentation and Sundara is more tonally correct. Bass is strong point in Sundara but need EQ to shine. I understand why someone would not like hifimans planar bass but for me it's different story. :)
To me, these two doesn't have good soundstage at all. They are forward sounding aggressive headphones. They have similar presentation from my memory. I can't try them side by side though Sundara is closer to 1990, not Ananda. Bass isn't all that strong. This doesn't feel like traditional planar bass. Sundara's bass is more similar to dynamic cans. Sub bass is weak. Mid bass is punchy and one note. Or maybe it comes out like that after getting used to Ananda.
graph (6).png

They are very similar tonally outside of the huge peak however i hear similar peak on Sundara as well like Amir's measurements.
hifiman sundara frequency response measurements.png

I'd say 1990 has better timbre and dynamics. Sundara's vocal detail better. But i'm shooting in the dark. I heard 1990 more than a year ago.

This is overall alarming, stimulating, engaging, foot tapping, headbanging type of sound. I like the Sundara. At first, i wasn't expecting this type of sound and brightness but i get it now. This signature is not my cup of tea for an extended use. I like more spaced and spread out sound. Sundara is right up in my eardrums. The comfort is also very bad for me. Reminds me the M50X.

Ananda is quite a bit better than this. It just lacks a bit of contrast. If i ignore the brightness/sharpness of Sundara i'd say Sundara sounds more correct out of the box. I think EQ is more needed on Ananda. It's 1.5k dip and 3k peak skews the timbre in my opinion. Sundara is brighter around 7-8k, Ananda is brighter around 3-4k. That's how i hear. The bass detail and EQ potential significantly better on Ananda. Soundstage and presentation also better on Ananda. Ananda also has more realistic sound. Sundara sounds like a headphone. I'd say the $350-$700 price gap between these headphones warranted and fair but they are different headphones end of the day. Ananda is not engaging/stimulating like Sundara.
 

Roland68

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Yes, it really only measures how I had my pair of headphones adjusted. And yes, weight differences matter. I was mostly interested if I could measure something that collaborated my sense that the Sundara were lighter on my head than the DT770. I was trying to remove the effect of gravity to just see what the clamp pressure was.

I don't follow why a single headband vs headband + bow would cause the clamping pressure to be different.

Anyway, this does stray a bit form the Sundara review, though I would like to understand the process more.
Push the headband against the bow and see what happens. The ear cups are pulled together.
This affects several factors, headphone weight, head width, head height from ear, but also how you put on the headphones.
 

MrBrainwash

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What you consider special effects on 1990 ?

To me, these two doesn't have good soundstage at all. They are forward sounding aggressive headphones. They have similar presentation from my memory. I can't try them side by side though Sundara is closer to 1990, not Ananda. Bass isn't all that strong. This doesn't feel like traditional planar bass. Sundara's bass is more similar to dynamic cans. Sub bass is weak. Mid bass is punchy and one note. Or maybe it comes out like that after getting used to Ananda.
View attachment 187396
They are very similar tonally outside of the huge peak however i hear similar peak on Sundara as well like Amir's measurements.
View attachment 187397
I'd say 1990 has better timbre and dynamics. Sundara's vocal detail better. But i'm shooting in the dark. I heard 1990 more than a year ago.

This is overall alarming, stimulating, engaging, foot tapping, headbanging type of sound. I like the Sundara. At first, i wasn't expecting this type of sound and brightness but i get it now. This signature is not my cup of tea for an extended use. I like more spaced and spread out sound. Sundara is right up in my eardrums. The comfort is also very bad for me. Reminds me the M50X.

Thank you for impressions. Some of them I can relate but general description don't match my thoughts. I use both. And they sound quite different. I heard more hifimans products than any other planars that's why for me planar bass has hifiman qualities :) - linear, fast, detailed, have lack of punch but have great extention (after EQ).

For me Sundara have good timbre, not as good as hd650 but not far off. Timbre of DT1990 is off for me. But I can forgive them as they have very good other qualities. like spatial effects and dynamics, strong punch and a lot of details and sounds separation. Nothing hide from them but at the same time they don't sound flat, I would say opposite of that, they have nice depth to the sound, they create 3D feeling like no other headphone I heard. On balanced and dekoni pada they sound more like semi-open headphones than full open. They start to get similar to the Sundara on analytical pads but a lot brigther.
 

phoenixsong

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Thank you for impressions. Some of them I can relate but general description don't match my thoughts. I use both. And they sound quite different. I heard more hifimans products than any other planars that's why for me planar bass has hifiman qualities :) - linear, fast, detailed, have lack of punch but have great extention (after EQ).

For me Sundara have good timbre, not as good as hd650 but not far off. Timbre of DT1990 is off for me. But I can forgive them as they have very good other qualities. like spatial effects and dynamics, strong punch and a lot of details and sounds separation. Nothing hide from them but at the same time they don't sound flat, I would say opposite of that, they have nice depth to the sound, they create 3D feeling like no other headphone I heard. On balanced and dekoni pada they sound more like semi-open headphones than full open. They start to get similar to the Sundara on analytical pads but a lot brigther.
Which Dekoni pads did you use for your 1990? I heard the Elite Velour is objectively the best match for them. Also, have you tried any Dekoni pads for your Sundara? :)
 

garbulky

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So i got a chance to listen the famous Sundara. My first impression is disappointing to be honest. Quite bright, sharp and shouty. I need some adaptation to judge it's technicalities but it didn't seem that good. It's quite forward headphone with very upfront vocals and odd treble peaks. I've checked the measurements in all websites and every measurement except amir's indicates almost perfect adherence to harman target which i don't hear at all. Amir's measurement more on point with that treble peak. Mind you i'm a guy who listens and loves DT 770 so i'm not bright sensitive at all. Soundstage is quite small, nowhere near DT 770. Sub bass isn't there. Comfort is bad. Quite high clamping force and very stiff feeling doesn't blend in and conform your head. Bad build, feels like it will age pretty bad pretty quick.

From my memory, the difference is quite huge between this and Ananda. Like it or hate it, Ananda have a magic. Sundara have a bit better dynamics that's all. Technical performance and soundstage quite a bit better on Ananda. Ananda also sounds kinda beautiful. It has some kind of sweetness to it. Sundara is more aggressive but in a bad way i feel. Ananda offers a unique and impressive performance. Sundara sounds pretty average. The soundstage is pretty restricted and every instrument fights for their space. It's like a chair catching game.

From my memory, DT 1990 destroys this.

I was a bit tired and sensitive during my time with the Sundara. I will give it more time later and try some EQ too. This is just my very first impression.
On what amp?
 

Gene LeClair

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Sundara feels like M50X to me which i hate. Sounds similar too(from my memory) but better of course.
I have both of those headphones and they are nothing alike. Neither sound or comfortability are similar.
 
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