Hifiman Sundara Review (headphone)

[Ken Tajalli]

Extremely thin and messed up wires take over inside of the cups with Hifimans. So there is already a bottleneck inside, i don't think your cable can change that. After realizing this, all the difference you hear can magically disappear.

This is Ananda's 3.5mm connector

Good one!
Lucky that was the first thing I replaced on my Edition XS.
Don't want to beat a dead horse, but there is a possibility that my amps (Chord Mojo and Hugo2) are sensitive to cables, though Rob Watts (the designer) says No.

 

[phoenixsong]

Depends on how you would have presented the results.
I would be very intrigued to say the least. There would still be a chance that you would have guessed right. Very small but still possible.

We do not need to investigate every crazy idea someone thinks off, to be very confident some things are true or not. From every other thing we know about certain subjects we can conclude that certain propositions about that subject are very close to impossible.

Like someone claiming to have seen a rock fall up into the sky. From everything we know about gravity, that would be so unlikely to be true that we can just dismiss it. Until someone provides us with very convincing evidence to the contrary.

It is actually not too unimaginable for people to be able to tell cables apart in a blind test. From what I recall, Tyll was able to tell apart AKG Q701 headphones nigh perfectly every time, with one set having undergone burn in and the other without

 

[WickedInsignia]

Tell me, if I had declared that I indeed had done double blind test and 9/10 results were repeatable! wouldn't you guys have argued with me about the short comings of my blind tests and the results to death??!

Of course. This would be a significant discovery and as a result come under serious review. That's how science works. It's built on the basis that results must be impervious to scrutiny and repeatable by multiple parties.
No successful (reliable) test has been conducted to determine a difference between cables, and that's not entirely unexpected since it's consistent with the science. In fact it's quite the contrary: we have successful tests that determine there is no difference.
A successful result in the positive would challenge years of repeatable and reliable study and would come under necessary skepticism. If your results can't stand up to it, they're not robust results.

You don't get to challenge years of peer-tested research conducted by dedicated experts and then claim they're too skeptical of your methods.

 

[WickedInsignia]

It is actually not too unimaginable for people to be able to tell cables apart in a blind test. From what I recall, Tyll was able to tell apart AKG Q701 headphones nigh perfectly every time, with one set having undergone burn in and the other without

Supposedly Tyll did not adequately rule out unit variation, pad differences and manufacturing tolerances. These can result in very noticeable dB differences.
EDIT: I can no longer find Tyll's article so the above remark is unreliable. Some forums it was shared in carry similar impressions however. Also Rtings measured the same headphone and came to the subjective + objective conclusion that no change had occurred.

The silly thing about the idea of burn-in is the conviction that the result will always be positive. The headphone will always sound better afterwards. Why is this the presumption? Most major manufacturers do not mention burn-in and there’s nothing to indicate that they “design” around it.

The FR changes from mechanical systems “settling into place” would be practically inaudible, if not completely nonexistent. You would cause more variations in FR by simply reseating the headphones on your head, creating variances in seal per session or by simply wearing your hair a different way. Not to mention the effects of “mental burn-in”. There are far too many factors creating far more noticeable variances for burn-in to even matter to the end consumer.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Of course. This would be a significant discovery and as a result come under serious review. That's how science works. It's built on the basis that results must be impervious to scrutiny and repeatable by multiple parties.
No successful (reliable) test has been conducted to determine a difference between cables, and that's not entirely unexpected since it's consistent with the science. In fact it's quite the contrary: we have successful tests that determine there is no difference.
A successful result in the positive would challenge years of repeatable and reliable study and would come under necessary skepticism. If your results can't stand up to it, they're not robust results.

You don't get to challenge years of peer-tested research conducted by dedicated experts and then claim they're too skeptical of your methods.

it is all blown up out of proportion !
- I am not trying to convince anyone.
- I don't care much if people don't believe it.
- I am not a believer myself, I am looking for answers too.
- there may be some under lying reason.
But getting religious about, call me delusional is not productive , I know how the science works, that a find must stand on its own two feet.
This is an old and sore subject for some.
Perhaps trying to come up with some idea as to why it may be happening ...
BTW, copper instead of silver sounds the same, just cable would be stiffer.

 

[phoenixsong]

If I remember correctly Tyll did not adequately rule out unit variation, pad differences and manufacturing tolerances. These can result in very noticeable dB differences.

The silly thing about the idea of burn-in is the conviction that the result will always be positive. The headphone will always sound better afterwards. Why is this the presumption? Most major manufacturers do not mention burn-in and there’s nothing to indicate that they “design” around it.

The FR changes from mechanical systems “settling into place” would be practically inaudible, if not completely nonexistent. You would cause more variations in FR by simply reseating the headphones on your head, creating variances in seal per session or by simply wearing your hair a different way. Not to mention the effects of “mental burn-in”. There are far too many factors creating far more noticeable variances for burn-in to even matter to the end consumer.

Would you say the same for IEMs since they have less positioning variances?

 

[WickedInsignia]

But getting religious about, call me delusional is not productive ,

Absolutely agree! It was not my intent to call you delusional or anything of the sort. I was simply arguing a point. Glad to hear our stances aren’t so dissonant from each other as well.

Would you say the same for IEMs since they have less positioning variances?

As far as I’m aware they have just as much variance if not more, since they will not always sit in your canal the same with each reseat and the silicon tip will change shape, not to mention the biological variances due to things like earwax. Maybe that would be less the case with cast tips made specifically for your canal.

 

[Pechorin]

-8db pre-amp seems like a big sacrifice in volume for sub-bass, which is something that is only perceived very subtly.

 

[odyo]

-8db pre-amp seems like a big sacrifice in volume for sub-bass, which is something that is only perceived very subtly.

Why we pay for amplifiers.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

-8db pre-amp seems like a big sacrifice in volume for sub-bass, which is something that is only perceived very subtly.

Did you know that if you use a digital volume control, depending on implementation , you wouldn't need preamp reduction, for as long as you don't max out the volume.

 

[RHO]

-8db pre-amp seems like a big sacrifice in volume for sub-bass, which is something that is only perceived very subtly.

Until you experience it in a good recording. Then, -8dB is no sacrifice at all.
BTW: I sue Oratory1990's PEQ setting for Harman OE 2018. Pre-gain is -5.5dB.

 

[Rayman30]

On sale for $299 currently.

 

[Bernard23]

I'm scratching an itch here; brain says no, emotional bit is screaming I NEED to upgrade. I really like the Sundara, when EQd with Roon, but there's a nagging voice telling me that the Arya Stealth or the LCD-X would be so much more fun. Asking this question on Headfi gets a unanimous chorus of "do it, they're both in another league / stratosphere", what I really need is a dose of some sensible realism here to convince me it's really not worth it, and I'm better off buying a new guitar, or making my car go faster etc etc.

 

[RHO]

I'm scratching an itch here; brain says no, emotional bit is screaming I NEED to upgrade. I really like the Sundara, when EQd with Roon, but there's a nagging voice telling me that the Arya Stealth or the LCD-X would be so much more fun. Asking this question on Headfi gets a unanimous chorus of "do it, they're both in another league / stratosphere", what I really need is a dose of some sensible realism here to convince me it's really not worth it, and I'm better off buying a new guitar, or making my car go faster etc etc.

Listening trough the Sundara EQd to Harman 2018 while typing this.
If the Arya Stealth or LCD-X play in an other league, I would really want to know what magical pills those people take to be able to hear so much more in music than I'm doing right now.
Maybe they are a little better here or there. Maybe they aren't better at all. I don't know. But they surely can't be soooooooooooo much better that they play in on other league or even stratosphere.
There's just so much improvement to be had once you have a product that already performs really really well.
There can be other reasons to upgrade (comfort, build quality, ...). But I don't think you really need to upgrade if you like how the Sundara sounds. IMO there is very little chance there will be a world of audible difference.
Maybe try to play with EQ a little, just to know if a different sound signature pleases you more that what you have now.

 

[Bernard23]

Listening trough the Sundara EQd to Harman 2018 while typing this.
If the Arya Stealth or LCD-X play in an other league, I would really want to know what magical pills those people take to be able to hear so much more in music than I'm doing right now.
Maybe they are a little better here or there. Maybe they aren't better at all. I don't know. But they surely can't be soooooooooooo much better that they play in on other league or even stratosphere.
There's just so much improvement to be had once you have a product that already performs really really well.
There can be other reasons to upgrade (comfort, build quality, ...). But I don't think you really need to upgrade if you like how the Sundara sounds. IMO there is very little chance there will be a world of audible difference.
Maybe try to play with EQ a little, just to know if a different sound signature pleases you more that what you have now.

I don't have any complaints around the Sundara, they are my go-to out a trio of them, plus HD650 and Grado Hemp. I EQ all of them to Harman, with the caveat of using Oratory1990s measurement data. I've just read a review that was largely bereft of hyperbole, so that was helpful. I'm guessing that in reality, the differences between Sundara to LCD or Arya are probably similar in terms of being able to distinguish them as the differences between the Sundara and my other phones (Hemp and HD650). I suspect that initially I'd congratulate myself for making such a sound investment, but in truth I wouldn't spend more time listening to music, and after a while I wouldn't somehow enjoy my favourite tracks even more than before, whereas everyone knows that a new guitar always adds colour to your life!

 

[Dealux]

The Sundara is a strange headphone. At first listen they didn't blow me away but I got what I wanted essentially. They did in fact sound more alive and vivid than my previous headphones with very natural timbre to the highs. However, the thing that threw me off initially was that the treble exhibits some of that brittle character that some cheap dynamic driver headphones have but to a much lesser degree. It's weird because on some songs that I like, I hear some sibilance from that 6K peak but on others that I know to be sibilant on other headphones, they have no added sibilance. Well, mostly because cheaper headphones have peaks above 9K, not below, which are much sharper. Sundara's "air" frequencies are much cleaner if not somewhat recessed.

Where the treble "resolution" becomes readily apparent is with binaural recordings (I use the channel Deep Ocean of Sounds for this test). My god does the upper treble sound detailed and sharp but not at the detriment of clarity. I would go as far as to say that the Sundara has more detailed highs than the HD800. Everything sounds more vivid and clear but closer to you. In a way, it's like listening to IEMs.

 

[Bernard23]

I'm scratching an itch here; brain says no, emotional bit is screaming I NEED to upgrade. I really like the Sundara, when EQd with Roon, but there's a nagging voice telling me that the Arya Stealth or the LCD-X would be so much more fun. Asking this question on Headfi gets a unanimous chorus of "do it, they're both in another league / stratosphere", what I really need is a dose of some sensible realism here to convince me it's really not worth it, and I'm better off buying a new guitar, or making my car go faster etc etc.

I did it. Grado Hemp, HD650 all gone, Sundara is a box waiting to go. LCD-X with EQ in Roon is party time!

 

[D00M]

Yes. But what you think about this review ?

This video is helpful. And can be used for selected info. Surprised I haven't seen this before. Never showed up in Youtube search.

It does provide some relative information. HE400se, HE4XX, HE-X4 sound similar. HE5XX, Sundara, and HE6se sound different from previous group and from each other. HE5XX appears to have wide soundstage, which matches what I hear in Deva in real life. Sundara and HE6se both have more details than other headphones.

However, the relative info stops there. Cannot determine which is preferred from video recording. That will have to come from real life test.

 

[192kbps]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545499332496961537

 

[Spojkovic]

Hey

Im thinking about getting these headphones but im not sure if i have enough power to drive them properly.
I believe solderdude in this, so if you can reply, it would be awesome.

I have Topping E30 DAC and Topping A50s and xDuoo MT-602 amps but im not sure if it will sound good on xDuoo, i think i heard that tube or hybrid tube amps are designed for headphones with more impedance but im not sure, also i have some soviet tubes there which sounds awesome on DT880 250ohm Black Edition.
I dont know what these headphones need, these are low impedance but low sensitivity and i have experience only with high impedance headphones with higher sensitivity than Sundara.

KenTajali is right.
In music there is more energy present in the bass so most power will be in the lower octaves.

staticV3 is also right. With white noise or a sweep (measurements) all frequencies have the same amplitude and energy when the impedance is flat. (at least on average over time for white noise)
When the impedance has a peak in the impedance then during the test those frequencies (usually somewhere in the lows and upper treble) requires less current and thus less power.

However, in most cases the current decrease is no more than half (-6dB) where in music signals the amplitude in the low frequency content usually is much more than 6dB opposite the higher frequencies.