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Help with Decision: Purifi, Nilai, NC502MP or ?

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ambd

ambd

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Having owned almost all the amps you mention (Purifi, NC502MP; NC252MP and many others). I would focus on that if you are not averse to DIY)
Sinad / quality / price ratio = Unbeatable

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I can solder no problem, I have done my own RCA interconnects since it is easy and cheaper than buying. I enjoy DIY. I ended up ordering an NCx500 Apollon, it has not arrived yet. Let me read your post. If I am not mistaken, you were raving, some months ago, about a amplifier that could only be found on Germany, right? I cannot remember the name, do you still have it? or now you are using the Micro Bamboo?
 

Sokel

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It looks to me like you're not accounting for room reflections in your calculations. There may be a formula to calculate their contribution, but I don't know what it is off the top of my head. At any rate, I'm guessing you could easily add 3-5dB to what you get from the direct sound. That would reduce the power requirement to a level the Fosi can handle.

If Klipsch can do it, so can you.
On the other hand peaks are not 10db higher,that's a usual average to max.
Peaks can be 20 and even 30db higher than max,depending the music.
 

Power Pop 23

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So you're doing around 85dB at 10ft which means you're using about 6 watts of your amp's power. In that case, other than maybe some HF load dependency, it's doubtful that you would hear any difference between the Fosi and the Hypex or Purifi offerings. You still have several dB of headroom with the Fosi.

My honest advice is to spend your amp budget on better speakers, instead, if you have any in mind.

If you are still set on an amp upgrade though, for your requirements it would be virtually impossible, if not completely impossible to hear the difference between any of the amps you mentioned. I would just go for the cheapest one that has the features, look, build quality, warranty, etc. that you want.
Spot on. If practical, consider auditioning loudspeakers within your budget before committing to a different speaker amplifier.
 
OP
ambd

ambd

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Spot on. If practical, consider auditioning loudspeakers within your budget before committing to a different speaker amplifier.
Well, not really true. Per my calculations, the NHT C3 (with their 85 db efficiency) lose 12 db at listening position due to being 10 ft away. So, they become a 72db x 1watt speaker at listening position. So, to get to 82db I need around 8 watts, and to get to 85db I need around 25watts. Now the reality is that most peaks are easily 10db, or even more, so that takes us to 92-95db. So, to properly handle those peaks I need anywhere from 64 watts-128 watts. Surely, just peaks. My Fosi has the 48v power supply. But, my Mini Dsp Flex is unbalanced so it puts out max 2V and that also takes away some db in the end.
 

kemmler3D

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Well, not really true. Per my calculations, the NHT C3 (with their 85 db efficiency) lose 12 db at listening position due to being 10 ft away. So, they become a 72db x 1watt speaker at listening position. So, to get to 82db I need around 8 watts, and to get to 85db I need around 25watts. Now the reality is that most peaks are easily 10db, or even more, so that takes us to 92-95db. So, to properly handle those peaks I need anywhere from 64 watts-128 watts. Surely, just peaks. My Fosi has the 48v power supply. But, my Mini Dsp Flex is unbalanced so it puts out max 2V and that also takes away some db in the end.
Yes, but don't forget room gain and +3dB from having 2 speakers. So this is a bit of an overestimate of real power requirements.
 

Power Pop 23

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Well, not really true. Per my calculations, the NHT C3 (with their 85 db efficiency) lose 12 db at listening position due to being 10 ft away. So, they become a 72db x 1watt speaker at listening position. So, to get to 82db I need around 8 watts, and to get to 85db I need around 25watts. Now the reality is that most peaks are easily 10db, or even more, so that takes us to 92-95db. So, to properly handle those peaks I need anywhere from 64 watts-128 watts. Surely, just peaks. My Fosi has the 48v power supply. But, my Mini Dsp Flex is unbalanced so it puts out max 2V and that also takes away some db in the end.
Your Fosi V3 may not fit your needs. I am running Dirac Live using a Buckeye NC502MP - specifically because it has so much measured power available. I chose a 2-channel NC502MP based on Amir's comment in his review of an 8-channel NC502MP from Buckeye Amps where he stated 'Even with music, I think you will be fine but the purist may want to have better. Then again, if you are going to lose power to get there, this amplifier may be a better choice.'
 
OP
ambd

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Your Fosi V3 may not fit your needs. I am running Dirac Live using a Buckeye NC502MP - specifically because it has so much measured power available. I chose a 2-channel NC502MP based on Amir's comment in his review of an 8-channel NC502MP from Buckeye Amps where he stated 'Even with music, I think you will be fine but the purist may want to have better. Then again, if you are going to lose power to get there, this amplifier may be a better choice.'
Yes, I agree. And also, that is the same rationale I applied to my specific case. I ended up getting an Apollon NCx500. I wanted the option to experiment, subjective I know, with some op amps and Buckeye then was not a chance. I was between VTV and Apollon, and although Apollon involved more waiting and not easy warranty since they are in Slovenia, I prefer to order from them because they seem to have higher quality standards than VTV. I think VTV has improved considerably in the last years, but also, Amir measurements show that Apollon measures better than VTV, not just in Sinad.
 

daniboun

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Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I can solder no problem, I have done my own RCA interconnects since it is easy and cheaper than buying. I enjoy DIY. I ended up ordering an NCx500 Apollon, it has not arrived yet. Let me read your post. If I am not mistaken, you were raving, some months ago, about a amplifier that could only be found on Germany, right? I cannot remember the name, do you still have it? or now you are using the Micro Bamboo?
I sold that amp, it was the M2 Satisfaction A2 based on a tripath chip )
I am now using the Micro Bamboo that is one of the best amp I got.
 
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ambd

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I sold that amp, it was the M2 Satisfaction A2 based on a tripath chip )
I am now using the Micro Bamboo that is one of the best amp I got.
I may give it a go. What is the output of the Micro Bamboo in 4ohm? 240watts x channel? And, do you have any notes to help with the build? any sort of guide? I can solder but I would like to know what goes where in terms of cables and else. I saw both of your posts the Bamboo and the Micro but I could not find much detail on the build, just the parts needed. Thanks!
 

daniboun

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I may give it a go. What is the output of the Micro Bamboo in 4ohm? 240watts x channel? And, do you have any notes to help with the build? any sort of guide? I can solder but I would like to know what goes where in terms of cables and else. I saw both of your posts the Bamboo and the Micro but I could not find much detail on the build, just the parts needed. Thanks!

Check the full ASR review here for the 3E Modules :


For the tips and assembly, I shared this :

 

Overseas

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What about 2x Fosi ZA3, mono mode? Lots of power, can change opamps if you want etc
 

brunes

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I may give it a go. What is the output of the Micro Bamboo in 4ohm? 240watts x channel? And, do you have any notes to help with the build? any sort of guide? I can solder but I would like to know what goes where in terms of cables and else. I saw both of your posts the Bamboo and the Micro but I could not find much detail on the build, just the parts needed. Thanks!
I plan to assemble mine hopefully next week, I could take some step by step photos if you are interested and then I can let you know if it works!
 

JeremyFife

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Hi, and I'd like to start with an apology; you have specifically asked about changing amplifier, I do realise that.

However, can I suggest, as others have, that your best upgrade will be to change your speakers. Your NHT's are good but can be bettered, especially for $1,400.
The pre-EQ preference score for your NHTs is 4.4 ish, it takes a full integer increase for a speaker to be reliably recognised as "better" so look at the Review Index here for Recommended Speakers with a preference score of 5.5 and above - there are some great choices e.g. ;
Genelec 8030 (no external amplifier needed)
Revel M16
Kef R3
Even better choice if you buy used

(Preference score is an indicator, not a guarantee - read the reviews and do your own research)

For the volumes you listen at, I seriously doubt that you will hear a big difference with an Amp upgrade ... but you'll hear it if you change the speakers!

If you really want a new Amp, and it's your system, pick the features you want; balanced, triggers, adjustable Gain etc and choose based on that and subjective assessment of manufacturing quality.

Enjoy the music :)
 
OP
ambd

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What about 2x Fosi ZA3, mono mode? Lots of power, can change opamps if you want etc
I considered it. I ended up buying an NCx500 Apollon that also allows me to change op amps. it will arrive soon, I will let you know what I experience in terms of improvement, although it will be subjective.
 
OP
ambd

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I plan to assemble mine hopefully next week, I could take some step by step photos if you are interested and then I can let you know if it works!
Thanks for the offer. Yes, please share your process as it will be useful to me and also for many others. I saw the layout in daniboun post, but I would like to understand how to connect it all together.
 
OP
ambd

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Just a short update. The Apollon NCx500 arrived yesterday. Packing was not the best, but maybe customs changed it. Surely, customs opened the box so that is a possibility. When I opened the box, the amplifier was only protected with a very thin paper and nothing else. Surely, it had some styrofoam corners but that was all. Not impressed by the packing to be sincere.

I hooked it up immediately and started listening, testing the different gain settings. I tried them all but the highest. Having the 2 volts coming out of the Mini DSP Flex, I mainly listened to a lot of music in the third setting, one before the highest. The first two settings did not provide enough power to make a real difference. The first and second were close to the max power (regardless of distortion) provided by the Fosi V3.

If there was subjectivity in the paragraphs above, hard to objective with good packing :) , it is all subjective below and, surely without a doubt, it is all specific to my case. So, in that sense, my subjective comments only apply to my specific situation and pertain to my experience with less than 10 hours with the amplifier.

Pros:
- Soundstage became 20-30% wider horizontally
- Instruments were easier to discern in space.
- Bass became louder and tighter.
- Background is really dead.
- No hum and no noise when turning the amplifier on or off. Surely, if the amplifier is turn on or off in the right sequence with regards to the other components.

Cons:
- Frequencies around 10khz to 15khz have become more prominent. They are not louder than before, but probably due to the higher Sinad they are easier to discern.
- Frequencies from 80hz to 300hz are somehow lost in the soundstage. This did not happen with the Fosi V3. Still, too early to even confirm this properly. It could be that this amplifier being more transparent regarding the source is showing how the midrange driver of my speaker cannot handle those frequencies properly. I will play with some PEQ in the Mini DSP and see what I can do. There is more headroom for subjective comments regarding this - some songs that have a lump around 80 to 300hz, do not have that problem, but I should say that the portrayal of voices by this particular amplifier is not too pleasant to my ears. And knowing my friends, many of them who are talented musicians and also listen to a lot of music, they will share my opinion. I did spend a couple of hours moving the speakers closer to the back wall, and away from the wall, as well as placing them further apart or closer to each other, but this sound signature did not change much.

I will listen further to the amplifier with the higher gain setting and report back. For now, unexpectedly, I find myself in the side of those who want to go by the numbers but find that regardless of the great measurements performance, some Class D amplifiers simply do not produce a pleasant sound. And for pleasant sound, you have to understand that I am being 100% subjective to what I like. Because, beyond the numbers there is that learned experience, that develops into taste. And that regardless of the fact that your particular taste may not be shared by many.

Until now, and this is still very early, I would dare to say that regarding the critical frequency range of 80hz to 300hz, where most voices fall, the Fosi V3 with its stock op amps sounds better (in my system, in my room and for my ears and for my mind) than the Apollon NCx500.

I truly hope that as I further experiment with the Apollon gain settings, speaker position, and even PEQ in the Mini DSP, that statement above will radically flip to the other side.

Sincere subjectivity...
 
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ambd

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The Class D journey continues.... (all is subjective below but may be useful to some)

I was able to do a couple more listening sessions and the first fact is that I noticed that I develop listening fatigue way faster with the Apollon NCx500 than with the Fosi V3 or with my previous NAD 3020 D.

I did further testing with all the gain settings in the Apollon but the sound signature did not change much.

I also played with the Parametric Equalizer in the Mini DSP Flex trying to bring out the midrange and further flesh out the sound. It did not work. The sound was better when I added anywhere from 3 to 5db around 200hz with a Q of 1.5 or so, lifting a bit the surrounding frequencies. But, not even that was able to fix the problem with the midrange. Surely, that EQ brought out the midrange, but it did not round the edges. The sound was still very harsh and flat in the midrange.

Then, a friend of mine brought a inexpensive Aiyima T8 Tube preamplifier, it only has one tube. I put the Aiyima in the chain right between the 2 volt output of the Mini DSP and the input of the amplifier. That worked much better even when the Aiyima had just the stock tube. It also made the soundstage smaller and the sound muddy. But, we are bringing a western electric 396A tube this Friday and that should work better in the Aiyima T8. I am just doing this test with the Aiyima to taste how the sound can improve. If it goes somehow well, I will have to buy either a tube preamplifier such as an Audio Research SP16 or Tube4hifi SP14, or even the Elikit TU-8500, which are all in my price range. But, if what the Aiyima brings with the WE tube is not promising then I will just sell the Apollon.

Something I noticed when I was listening with the Aiyima tube preamplifier in the chain is that despite the fact that everything got somehow muddy and the elements in the soundstage lost pinpoint accuracy, the sound was way more pleasant, engaging and non-fatiguing. So, that is something to think about.

My friend also brought an Aiyima 08 Pro amplifier, no tubes. And we hook it up replacing the Apollon, without the tube preamp, just with the Mini DSP. The sound was way fuller (although not as accurate and clean as with the NCx500), the midrange was way more natural and full bodied. If I need to choose, I would easily prefer to lose some of that defined imaging and horizontal separation in the soundstage that the NCx500 provides for a more natural midrange and a more non-fatiguing sound.
 

terryforsythe

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In response to the question asked in the title, I went with the Nilai, which I received two weeks ago.

I only listened to it in full range for a short time, and I was very impressed. Now it is driving my woofers using an active crossover setup. It has extremely good bass control, a result of its very high damping factor.
 

dom_st

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Just a short update. The Apollon NCx500 arrived yesterday. Packing was not the best, but maybe customs changed it. Surely, customs opened the box so that is a possibility. When I opened the box, the amplifier was only protected with a very thin paper and nothing else. Surely, it had some styrofoam corners but that was all. Not impressed by the packing to be sincere.

I hooked it up immediately and started listening, testing the different gain settings. I tried them all but the highest. Having the 2 volts coming out of the Mini DSP Flex, I mainly listened to a lot of music in the third setting, one before the highest. The first two settings did not provide enough power to make a real difference. The first and second were close to the max power (regardless of distortion) provided by the Fosi V3.


Pros:
- Soundstage became 20-30% wider horizontally
- Instruments were easier to discern in space.
- Bass became louder and tighter.
- Background is really dead.
- No hum and no noise when turning the amplifier on or off. Surely, if the amplifier is turn on or off in the right sequence with regards to the other components.

Cons:
- Frequencies around 10khz to 15khz have become more prominent. They are not louder than before, but probably due to the higher Sinad they are easier to discern.
- Frequencies from 80hz to 300hz are somehow lost in the soundstage. This did not happen with the Fosi V3. Still, too early to even confirm this properly. It could be that this amplifier being more transparent regarding the source is showing how the midrange driver of my speaker cannot handle those frequencies properly. I will play with some PEQ in the Mini DSP and see what I can do. There is more headroom for subjective comments regarding this - some songs that have a lump around 80 to 300hz, do not have that problem, but I should say that the portrayal of voices by this particular amplifier is not too pleasant to my ears. And knowing my friends, many of them who are talented musicians and also listen to a lot of music, they will share my opinion. I did spend a couple of hours moving the speakers closer to the back wall, and away from the wall, as well as placing them further apart or closer to each other, but this sound signature did not change much.

I will listen further to the amplifier with the higher gain setting and report back. For now, unexpectedly, I find myself in the side of those who want to go by the numbers but find that regardless of the great measurements performance, some Class D amplifiers simply do not produce a pleasant sound. And for pleasant sound, you have to understand that I am being 100% subjective to what I like. Because, beyond the numbers there is that learned experience, that develops into taste. And that regardless of the fact that your particular taste may not be shared by many.

Hi really nice and honest review.
I am also trying getting used to the same amp, i guess the packaging is as it is, but seems to be stable enough.

We also seem to have a similar setup, though i do have the miniDSP flex balanced (4V output). So i only use the 20.5dB gain setting.
This info below is what i took from another thread here.

12.8dB = 11.5Vrms
20,5dB = 4Vrms
27,5dB = 2,4Vrms
29dB = 2Vrms

Regarding your pros I probably couldn´t have said it better myself. It´s definitely a solid amp plus there is no noise coming out of the speakers at all, even if I get real close.

But regarding the cons, even though i don´t know what the weak link in my chain is, my room, my speakers, the Wiim Streamer or my own preference?
It kind of sounds (exaggerated a bit) like the instruments are being played in a sound chamber or a black hole.
Plus there is some area - not sure what frequency range, that sounds kind of mushy. I do have some room modes though, in the area between 80 and 275Hz but these didn´t just appear with the new amp, so ...

I mean i bought the amp to have something different, something smaller, more efficient, more powerfull, less noise, an improvement overall... and i do get all these improvements. But the musical satisfaction just isn´t at 100%. So i might experiment with another pre-amp as well, might be difficult to find something suitable as i am not a big fan of ending up with four devices in my chain. streamer, pre-amp, dsp and amp. It just get´s too complicated for everyone else to use.
 
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