its a bit of an oxymoron your asking for.
It can't be Silent and loud at the same time. there is always a difference in time so its not instantaneous.
i don’t understand where you want to go with that
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Help me understanding Dynamic Range
- Thread starter maruko
- Start date
It can't be Silent and loud at the same time. there is always a difference in time so its not instantaneous.
i don’t understand where you want to go with that
- Thread Starter
- #22
It's more about confusion in my mind than oxymoron. In a newbie thread opened by a newbie in a newbie section, where do you think I might want to go, beyond this?
I'm trying to make a lot of informations in one piece and this is where I take this concept of "instantaneous dynamic range":
Instantaneous Dynamic Range of Human Hearing?
Hello all! There is something I have been wondering for a long time, but never could find an answer to: I understand that the ear reacts differently in perceived eq at different volumes of sound. I understand this info to be contained on the Fletcher Munson curve. But, I can’t seem to find any...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range
I'm trying to figure out a threshold, as a reference for good sound.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #23
Ok, I'm watching the video, now I understand why all of you told me that the noise level in my room is greater than I thought.Live Sure.
Music: how loud is loud? (video)
Here is a much needed video on the topic of how loud we really listen to music. And issues related to hearing damage, etc. It is an argument that seems to come up twice a day since I started testing headphones. Here, I review the literature on true dynamic range of music and considerations...
Amir say that an SPL meter it's not the way to go for measuring peaks, and that is exactly what I did.
- Thread Starter
- #24
Another thing I didn't understand:
When an audio recording has, say, a DR 12, what's the relationship with the DR of the format in which it is recorded? Does it mean that you are using only 12 dB of the 96 dB offered by the CD?
When an audio recording has, say, a DR 12, what's the relationship with the DR of the format in which it is recorded? Does it mean that you are using only 12 dB of the 96 dB offered by the CD?
The noise level in your room is completely irrelevant when it comes to the system’s ability to reproduce real-life dynamics.
There is no sound system you can afford that can truly match the full dynamic range of live sound across the entire spectrum.
Yes, your ears have natural dynamic compression, but it’s neither instantaneous nor uniform. It alters the tone in a way unique to your hearing, with factors like threshold, attack, release, and knee varying from person to person and changing with age.
In other words, to experience the full relative dynamic range of your hearing, you need a system capable of reproducing actual dynamics.
Let’s say you want to record an instrument with a peak amplitude of 90dB SPL. As long as the total dynamic range of your system (recording and playback) exceeds 100dB, you can play back the track at 90dB SPL without hearing background noise (90dB SPL - 100dB dynamic range = -10dB SPL).
However, if the recording has only 80dB of dynamic range, you might hear 10dB of background noise—which could include studio noise, microphone self-noise, or other sources.
If your playback system can reach 90dB SPL but has a dynamic range lower than 90dB, you will hear system noise such as hum or hiss.
If your room has background noise—like an AC fan you might hear it
If the recording format (file/medium) has limited dynamic range, you may also hear quantization noise.
These different sources of noise—recording noise, system noise, room noise, and quantization noise—are all distinct. You might hear them simultaneously, or one might mask another depending on spectral composition and psychoacoustics.
For example, a recording might have a 60Hz hum at 30dB SPL and peak at 100dB SPL, giving it a 70dB dynamic range. However, if your room has a 1kHz noise at 20dB SPL, it can still be quite noticeable and distracting.
the TL;DR is You want our Sysems Dynamic range to be Bigger then your peak listneing level. (idaly >+10dB)
There is no sound system you can afford that can truly match the full dynamic range of live sound across the entire spectrum.
Yes, your ears have natural dynamic compression, but it’s neither instantaneous nor uniform. It alters the tone in a way unique to your hearing, with factors like threshold, attack, release, and knee varying from person to person and changing with age.
In other words, to experience the full relative dynamic range of your hearing, you need a system capable of reproducing actual dynamics.
Recording and Playback Dynamics
Let’s say you want to record an instrument with a peak amplitude of 90dB SPL. As long as the total dynamic range of your system (recording and playback) exceeds 100dB, you can play back the track at 90dB SPL without hearing background noise (90dB SPL - 100dB dynamic range = -10dB SPL).
However, if the recording has only 80dB of dynamic range, you might hear 10dB of background noise—which could include studio noise, microphone self-noise, or other sources.
If your playback system can reach 90dB SPL but has a dynamic range lower than 90dB, you will hear system noise such as hum or hiss.
If your room has background noise—like an AC fan you might hear it
If the recording format (file/medium) has limited dynamic range, you may also hear quantization noise.
Different Types of Noise
These different sources of noise—recording noise, system noise, room noise, and quantization noise—are all distinct. You might hear them simultaneously, or one might mask another depending on spectral composition and psychoacoustics.
For example, a recording might have a 60Hz hum at 30dB SPL and peak at 100dB SPL, giving it a 70dB dynamic range. However, if your room has a 1kHz noise at 20dB SPL, it can still be quite noticeable and distracting.
the TL;DR is You want our Sysems Dynamic range to be Bigger then your peak listneing level. (idaly >+10dB)
- Thread Starter
- #26
Thank you, very exhaustive, this was exactly where I need clarification.
There is some calculation / formula to determine the total DR of my system, aside from the rule of thumb of having the device to be 10 dB better than the music itself? In a similar way we do with THD?
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2020
- Messages
- 2,924
- Likes
- 4,887
It means nothing. It's just a number with NO association with dB - and it is quite a poor measure of dynamics in the real world.
If you want to dig deeper into how it's done properly, investigate EBU R128 (an international standard for Loudness) and LUFS:
EBU R128 document
EBU R128 discussion on loudness
EBU TECH 3344 application
You add all the noises of your system together (not as easy as it sounds) or better, measure it
Then you calculate with the gain and efficiency of your speakers to get a total output noise of the system in dB SPL.
You figure out what the max volume of your system is before it starts to distort, in dB SPL.
Subtract the noise’s maximum SPL, and you get your maximum dynamic range. (at max volume!)
If you listen below max volume you subtract how many dB you listen below max. from your max. dynamic range
If you measure the noise floor with a microphone and not electronically, your room noise is likely the limiting factor.
10dB better then the Peak Playback level.
There is only THD when there is a signal, so in a way, THD is masked by the music.
How well depends extremely on the type of distortion as well as on the music.
For a rule of thumb, -60 dB is "okay" with most music if the distortion is not as "harsh."
To be safe and conservative, you can use the same rule and say distortion is definitely inaudible as long as it is below the listening level (or -10dB if you want to be extra extra).
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #29
In conclusion, it seems to me that - since room noise is composed of different frequencies and our sensitivity to these frequencies (low, medium, and high) is highly variable and non-linear (we are most sensitive only in the 1-5 kHz range, with peak at 3-4 kHz, while being much less sensitive to low and high frequencies) - the influence of room noise on the actual perceivable dynamic range (DR) should be considered less significant than one might think. Consequently, taking the measured room noise level as the minimum level (the quieter sound) for DR calculation purposes is unreliable. Right?
www.audiosciencereview.com
Dynamic Range: How Quiet is Quiet?
Dynamic Range: How Quiet is Quiet? By Amir Majidimehr [Note: This article was originally published in the Widescreen Review Magazine] Most people think of dynamic range as how loud something is. Mathematically though, dynamic range is a ratio. It is the loudest signal divided by “root mean...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #30
This bring me to another question.
If i understand correctly, even the recording itself has it's own digital level values (dBFS) REGARDLESS of the listening level we set in the amplifier; so if at a given moment the music is playing at lower dBFS levels, will the noise floor of the recording go down along with signal level?
Say, in a 96 dB recording, when the recorded music is expected to play at 96 dBSPL peaks, the noise floor will be at 0 dB. But, what about the softest moments in a song? Say, 40 dBSPL. If the signal goes down, will the noise floor (of the recording, not of the system) go down along with it?
Last edited:
Yes.
Pretty much. A lot of room ambient noise is heavily biased towards low frequencies and is not going to impede your ability to hear noise at 4-10 kHz much if at all.
When did those definitions change? In recording studios the equipments signal to noise was always lower than the dynamic range. DR=SNR+headroom, sometimes more than 20db.
The signal level was always 0vu but the gear could handle another 20db (give or take) before clipping, this was the headroom. When studios started using digital you could set your signal level, usually -18dbfs (give or take) to give 0vu output, you were setting your headroom. This will reduce your SNR of the device by 18db because the signal is 18db lower the noise is the same. The assumption that SNR is the same as DR is only valid if your signal level is .1db below clipping.
A device like a CD or tape machine has a fixed dynamic range. The signal level is not, someone sets it when mastering, so the actual SNR is not fixed.
I think its a result of digital and the loudness wars. Home hifi now has signals .1db below clipping (no headroom) so peopke think SNR is DR its not.
The signal level was always 0vu but the gear could handle another 20db (give or take) before clipping, this was the headroom. When studios started using digital you could set your signal level, usually -18dbfs (give or take) to give 0vu output, you were setting your headroom. This will reduce your SNR of the device by 18db because the signal is 18db lower the noise is the same. The assumption that SNR is the same as DR is only valid if your signal level is .1db below clipping.
A device like a CD or tape machine has a fixed dynamic range. The signal level is not, someone sets it when mastering, so the actual SNR is not fixed.
I think its a result of digital and the loudness wars. Home hifi now has signals .1db below clipping (no headroom) so peopke think SNR is DR its not.
That depends on the recording/mixing/mastering and what you mean by signal. If its a fade out at the end of a song the noise will decrease with the music. If its the orchestra going from forte to piano the noise will stay the same, and if the mixer pushes up the piano part youll have more noise.
"The actual signal-to-noise ratio, of course, heavily depends on the signal.
In fact, it depends so much on the signal that using it as a general value would be almost useless. For example, if your signal is at -20 dBFS, the signal-to-noise ratio would be roughly 20 dB lower, give or take.
But what if the signal is at -60 dBFS?
So, the SNR usually refers to the maximum signal-to-noise ratio the equipment can achieve with an ideal test signal."
In fact, it depends so much on the signal that using it as a general value would be almost useless. For example, if your signal is at -20 dBFS, the signal-to-noise ratio would be roughly 20 dB lower, give or take.
But what if the signal is at -60 dBFS?
So, the SNR usually refers to the maximum signal-to-noise ratio the equipment can achieve with an ideal test signal."
- Thread Starter
- #36
I think, from what I’ve understood, that DR = SNR in linear devices such amplifiers:
“Signal to noise ratio and dynamic range are usually the same for linear devices such as amplifiers, but for time-varying devices such as systems using dynamic compression or noise reduction, or digital systems using floating point representation, dynamic range is typically greater than SNR.”
Signal-to-noise Ratio (SNR), Dynamic Range, and Noise
Learn the differences between Signal to Noise Ratio, Dynamic Range, and Noise. Understand how these dB measurements characterize device amplitude ranges.
So you never get it. That used to be called dynamic range, why did we change that? With some analog tape machine you can set how hard you hit the tape at 0vu which changes the SNR, the dynamic range dosnt change. So the only way to specify SNR is at a given signal level.
We reduced the two measurements, SNR and DR to one.
Yes if theres no headroom. Most studio gear is linear and has headroom and that dosnt hold. A good example from home is a phono pre. It need headroom because some cartridges are louder than others, adding this headroom reduces the SNR of the preamp.
Similar threads
