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Help choosing right integrated amplifier for Snell Type C/V

ZolaIII

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Yes, I can not ignore the convenience of new amplifiers, 100% agree, but I can not hide the amplifier because I want my living room, that is small, to be good looking in design.

I've bough a custom handcrafted cabinet engineered for HiFi. The guy who built it is coming to deliver it to me next week.


View attachment 342798

So I want an amplifier that is at least watchable :)

Nord One INT-C NC252MP is not too bad. But I need to consider that with shipping and import taxes (22% in Italy + customs duties) the price would raises...
Also, the shipping packages are treated very badly, I would prefer a pick up by hands, so I need to find a store that sells it for this reason and the taxes too.
As much as I remember there are cuple domestic Hypex designs in Italy and that would probably in the end be more worth to you (both regarding price and warranty). Seriously consider investing in capable DSP solution.
 
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edoardoz

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A new Yamaha with the classic Yamaha look?
This seems nice, what I don't like is the chassis quality, too much plastic :(. Probably worth save some more money and go with a-s1200?

The Soncoz SGP1 seems to be a final amplifier, no? I'm looking for integrated solution.

Yamaha seems interesting like other Japanese amplifiers, I've found this ONKYO A-809, 1 year warranty for 450 bucks (probably too expensive).

But, if there is something similar, in my nearby is plenty of Japanese amplifiers because in '90 '00 here was fashionable, so there could be a lot of interesting opportunity, like Onkyo, Yamaha, Technics/Panasonic, Sansui, ...

It's hard to find a class D in my nearby that is under 2000 bucks, probably I need:

1) Increase my budget
2) Look for some cheaper solution but favorable like '00 Japanese amplifiers
3) This is the most hard for me, don't look appearance and think only about result in term of sound
 
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edoardoz

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As much as I remember there are cuple domestic Hypex designs in Italy and that would probably in the end be more worth to you (both regarding price and warranty). Seriously consider investing in capable DSP solution.

I'm sorry but the solution you propose isn't clear to me from the beginning, you're telling me to get a PA, can you give me an example of how you would do it between power amplifier and pre amplifier? My problem is space and the cost seems to be higher considering that I will have to buy 2 pieces.
 

Count Arthur

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1705591946558.png



I don't have one, I have active monitors, so I don't need one, and I've never heard one, but it's Class D, Hypex NCore based, and I think it looks great. :)

Also available in black and there are similarly styled pre and power amps:

1705592549228.png


1705592518331.png
 
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edoardoz

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View attachment 342850


I don't have one, I have active monitors, so I don't need one, and I've never heard one, but it's Class D, Hypex NCore based, and I think it looks great. :)

Also available in black and there are similarly styled pre and power amps:

View attachment 342856

View attachment 342855
Very interesting, thanks. Just a little bit above my budget, it might be worth it
 
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edoardoz

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I've seen it for less: https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/teac-ax-505-integrated-amplifier, but I'm not sure about prices in Italy.
After Brexit, buy from England becomes really expensive... it's better if I can find it in EU.

I've found this Onkyo A-8700:

Power output: 105 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
Frequency response: 2Hz to 50kHz
Total harmonic distortion: 0.008%
Damping factor: 150
Input sensitivity: 0.16mV (MC), 2.5mV (MM), 150mV (line)
Signal to noise ratio: 75dB (MC), 94dB (MM), 107dB (line)
Output: 150mV (line)
Dimensions: 435 x 157 x 391mm
Weight: 13.5kg


Specs of Teac

Amplifier
- 4Ω Rated Out: 115+115W (1kHz, JEITA)
- 8Ω Rated Out: 70+70W (1kHz, JEITA)
- Speaker Impedance Range: 4Ω-8Ω
- THD: 0.002% (8Ω, 1kHz, 12.5W, JEITA)
- SNR: 110dB (8Ω, 1kHz, IHF-A)
- Freq range: 10 - 50k Hz (-5dB, XLR 1V, 8Ω, JEITA)

General
- Power: 220-240V (UK/Eu)
- Power consumption: 56W
- Dimensions (WHD): 290 x 81.6 x 264mm
- Net weight: 4.2 kg



In a few, why buy AX-505 (1300-1400 bucks) instead of Onkyo A-8700 (220 bucks)?

There are appreciable elements in terms of sound that justify spending more than 1000 euros, in this thread we talked about how difficult it is to recognize one amplifier from another, what are the real advantages of going for one solution or the other?
 

raindance

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The DAC he's building will color the sound more than any amplifier choice. Plus those aren't exactly resolving speakers and are probably far from original specs. So pages and pages of "perfect" amplifier suggestions is just a waste of space, in my humble opinion. Now I'll wait for the slaps...
 

Count Arthur

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An Onkyo A-8700 will be over 30 years old, it may be absolutely fine, but it's difficult to compare a new amplifier to a 30 year old one, as a value proposition.

If you're looking at used, there are plenty of good ones from manufacturers like NAD, Yamaha, Marantz, Denon and Onkyo available and anything working and under 10 years old will likely have plenty of life left in it, but as they get older the risk of problems obviously goes up. All well and good if you want to dabble in electronics and fix it yourself, or know someone that can.

I really like the NAD 7600, 150 wpc and it looks great, but there aren't many about and they are nearly 40 years old now:

1705596914343.png
 
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edoardoz

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The DAC he's building will color the sound more than any amplifier choice. Plus those aren't exactly resolving speakers and are probably far from original specs. So pages and pages of "perfect" amplifier suggestions is just a waste of space, in my humble opinion. Now I'll wait for the slaps...
I was waiting for the nice guy in the discussion to come along.

I'm not looking for the perfect amplifier, I'm in the section dedicated to people new to hifi and I'm trying to clear my head just because I'm on budget.

People here was really friendly and helpful, and they are helping me.

What you say about the DAC is your personal opinion, I'm not building it but an expert friend of mine, we are both in a Facebook group of DIY expert people, if you want to express your opinion you are always welcome in that forum or on the github page of the engineer who invented the Protodac.

The only waste of space is this message, IMHO.
 

Blumlein 88

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I was waiting for the nice guy in the discussion to come along.

I'm not looking for the perfect amplifier, I'm in the section dedicated to people new to hifi and I'm trying to clear my head just because I'm on budget.

People here was really friendly and helpful, and they are helping me.

What you say about the DAC is your personal opinion, I'm not building it but an expert friend of mine, we are both in a Facebook group of DIY expert people, if you want to express your opinion you are always welcome in that forum or on the github page of the engineer who invented the Protodac.

The only waste of space is this message, IMHO.
He is telling you the truth here. The diy dac will either sound exactly like dozens of competent inexpensive dacs or it will color the sound. Dacs are a solved problem.
 

DanielT

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This seems nice, what I don't like is the chassis quality, too much plastic :(. Probably worth save some more money and go with a-s1200?

The Soncoz SGP1 seems to be a final amplifier, no? I'm looking for integrated solution.

Yamaha seems interesting like other Japanese amplifiers, I've found this ONKYO A-809, 1 year warranty for 450 bucks (probably too expensive).

But, if there is something similar, in my nearby is plenty of Japanese amplifiers because in '90 '00 here was fashionable, so there could be a lot of interesting opportunity, like Onkyo, Yamaha, Technics/Panasonic, Sansui, ...

It's hard to find a class D in my nearby that is under 2000 bucks, probably I need:

1) Increase my budget
2) Look for some cheaper solution but favorable like '00 Japanese amplifiers
3) This is the most hard for me, don't look appearance and think only about result in term of sound
I missed that you are looking for integrated amplifiers, yes the Soncoz SGP1 is as you say a final amplifier, or power amplifier so we can count it out.

If this is the one you found, an ONKYO A-809, 1 year warranty for 450 bucks:
Nop that Onkyo amplifier, a 30 year old amp, even if it is a company that sells used HiFi with a warranty I would not have bought.With a one year warranty and FULLY gone through, serviced, replaced electronics. The whole package so to speak and done by a professional, so it is in mint condition. Perhaps.:)
(you really have to do that yourself and if you don't have the knowledge, you'll never know how well it's been done)

Speaking of the Onkyo A-8700, I agree with Count Arthur when he says this about used amps:

An Onkyo A-8700 will be over 30 years old, it may be absolutely fine, but it's difficult to compare a new amplifier to a 30 year old one, as a value proposition.

If you're looking at used, there are plenty of good ones from manufacturers like NAD, Yamaha, Marantz, Denon and Onkyo available and anything working and under 10 years old will likely have plenty of life left in it, but as they get older the risk of problems obviously goes up. All well and good if you want to dabble in electronics and fix it yourself, or know someone that can.

I really like the NAD 7600, 150 wpc and it looks great, but there aren't many about and they are nearly 40 years old now:

View attachment 342874
Heh heh that NAD 7600 was cool.:D
 
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DanielT

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He is telling you the truth here. The diy dac will either sound exactly like dozens of competent inexpensive dacs or it will color the sound. Dacs are a solved problem.
Seen from a price performance perspective compared to buying a DAC, it makes no sense BUT consider the fun factor of building something yourself.:D

_____
I know you know that's the case, just mentioning it to the OP. It is basically impossible to build one like this, with its performance and functions at the price it is sold for:

179,00 €tax incl.

 
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ZolaIII

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I'm sorry but the solution you propose isn't clear to me from the beginning, you're telling me to get a PA, can you give me an example of how you would do it between power amplifier and pre amplifier? My problem is space and the cost seems to be higher considering that I will have to buy 2 pieces.
Now I don't understand you. Yes I recommend PA as how you go over let's say 140~150 W with home amp's you get in territory of very very cuple of them and very expensive. Getting a budget Hypex module based amp is OK if its good quality and with warranty close to you and those Talian one's have both balanced/unbalanced inputs. I don't tend to persue looks or state of art SINAD but quality and such Hypex based one's are expensive (for example take a look at ATI Hypex lines). If you want old fashion and good looking amplifier with 140W I told you to take a look for Yamaha A-S 700 or R-S 700 for their performance/quality, loudness control's, input stage SNR and price. They aren't very new but you can find them for around 200~250€ second hand in very good condition, where I am they have old stock of A-S 700 in black colour only for 470€ new from official dealer with full warranty (three years) and while that's actually close to you I still don't think it would be a good price for you with taxes and delivery as Bosnia ain't in EU.
The mentioned Dynacord L1300FD has a digital volume control per each chenel along with PEQ, GEK, delay, limiter per each I/O (and combined) along with FIR and that's very competitive DSP capability. With each and any mentioned amplifier you need DAC and preamp (in one) with Yamaha or if you pick Hypex with unbalanced inputs you can go with unbalanced one and if you want to go with balanced you obviously need balanced one and cables for it. Balanced DAC's cost a little more but that's about it. Don't think you will need sub's with those speakers or at least not much. How do you calibrate system and with amplifiers that have volume control? You leave the DAC/preamp on 100% and adjust volume on AMP to 83~84 dB SPL on listening spot (from bottom up) for each speaker to the white noise - 20 dB signal playing and that's 86~88 dB stereo and theoretical peeks 106~108 dB and that's it power amp is limited and won't go over that (meaning your speakers are safe and sound). From there you control volume directly on the DAC lowering it down. Of course you do calibration after you do all necessary DSP-ing and preferably apply loudness.
Crazy future of Dynacord is speakers close to real time impedance measurements and showing it on a display as I don't know any other amp's doing something like that. Again you're speakers aren't hard to drive as they don't deap much in impedance (lower the impact higher the Amperage and that cause a lot of things including heat) all do they need a strong power amplifier regarding output power in W if you want to drive them to their SPL capabilities and most important thing is that amplifier doesn't clip because lack of power while doing so. When you take a look how much stand alone DSP's as MiniDSP Flex cost you will realise how big bargain Dynacord actually is (for quality, output power and capabilities and of course because it comes with comprehensive DSP chain included).
 
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DanielT

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Now I don't understand you. Yes I recommend PA as how you go over let's say 140~150 W with home amp's you get in territory of very very cuple of them and very expensive. Getting a budget Hypex module based amp is OK if its good quality and with warranty close to you and those Talian one's have both balanced/unbalanced inputs. I don't tend to persue looks or state of art SINAD but quality and such Hypex based one's are expensive (for example take a look at ATI Hypex lines). If you want old fashion and good looking amplifier with 140W I told you to take a look for Yamaha A-S 700 or R-S 700 for their performance/quality, loudness control's, input stage SNR and price. They aren't very new but you can find them for around 200~250€ second hand in very good condition, where I am they have old stock of A-S 700 in black colour only for 470€ new from official dealer with full warranty (three years) and while that's actually close to you I still don't think it would be a good price for you with taxes and delivery as Bosnia ain't in EU.
The mentioned Dynacord L1300FD has a digital volume control per each chenel along with PEQ, GEK, delay, limiter per each I/O (and combined) along with FIR and that's very competitive DSP capability. With each and any mentioned amplifier you need DAC and preamp (in one) with Yamaha or if you pick Hypex with unbalanced inputs you can go with unbalanced one and if you want to go with balanced you obviously need balanced one and cables for it. Balanced DAC's cost a little more but that's about it. Don't think you will need sub's with those speakers or at least not much. How do you calibrate system and with amplifiers that have volume control? You leave the DAC/preamp on 100% and adjust volume on AMP to 83~84 dB SPL on listening spot (from bottom up) for each speaker to the white noise - 20 dB signal playing and that's 86~88 dB stereo and theoretical peeks 106~108 dB and that's it power amp is limited and won't go over that (meaning your speakers are safe and sound). From there you control volume directly on the DAC lowering it down. Of course you do calibration after you do all necessary DSP-ing and preferably apply loudness.
Crazy future of Dynacord is speakers close to real time impedance measurements and showing it on a display as I don't know any other amp's doing something like that. Again you're speakers aren't hard to drive as they don't deap much in importance (lower the impact higher the Amperage and that cause a lot of things including heat) all do they need a strong power amplifier regarding output power in W if you want to drive them to their SPL capabilities and most important thing is that amplifier doesn't clip because lack of power while doing so. When you take a look how much stand alone DSP's as MiniDSP Flex cost you will realise how big bargain Dynacord actually is (for quality, output power and capabilities and of course because it comes with comprehensive DSP chain included).
Don't take offense now OP if you know this, but FIR , PEQ, GEK, delay. ZolaIII , why are these features that you are now talking about good to have?:)
 

ZolaIII

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Don't take offense now OP if you know this, but FIR , PEQ, GEK, delay. ZolaIII , why are these features that you are now talking about good to have?:)
To tailor room response back to what it really should be (or as close to ideal as it can be). And you can get there even with half deacent speakers without serious flaws that can not be corrected (with a little work and learning). On the other hand even with best ever produced speakers in a bad room acoustics you get horror without proper treatment and signal corrections. Acoustical treatment is pricy and a no go for most for it's space requirements and next best thing and much cheaper to afford is signal processing and of course digital in this day's and age. I know that you know this but I took on and pretended for wider educational purposes.
 
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edoardoz

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Seen from a price performance perspective compared to buying a DAC, it makes no sense BUT consider the fun factor of building something yourself.:D

_____
I know you know that's the case, just mentioning it to the OP. It is basically impossible to build one like this, with its performance and functions at the price it is sold for:

179,00 €tax incl.

@Blumlein 88 As I'm new in this field, I don't know if you are right or not, because I've absolutely not idea without a proper knowledge about DACs.
But, what I can tell if about what that FB group said te me about DACS: you can build DIY something that is better than commercial solution, because:

- you can choose chip, in this case you try to replicate TDA1541 without using the same amount of discrete components because you are using 8 x TDA1387 in parallel: this will reduce the distorsion rate of the conversion.
- you can choose a reclock that is way better than in commercial solution, like Ian Canada reclokers to reduce jitter
- you can choose best quality components, that are few, like condensers and resistors, hand crafted resistors by Charcroft, that will clean and purify interferences and distorsions
- you can choose to separate power supply (galvanic isolation)
- you can choose the power supply
- you can use Camilla DSP for free, to create audio processing pipelines for applications such as active crossovers or room correction
- you can modify settings in Raspberry, as you have the full control of the software like Moode or Volumio, and a lot of settings

So, you have something in hand that you can modify to accomplish everything you have in mind, and you can build something that can getting better and better.

smsl-d-6-dac is really good, as based on ak4493, that peoples in FB pages said that is one of the best that thay have testes, along with ESS9038Q2M and CS43198.
But when they tried TDA1387 they replaced all of those dacs and used it as reference dac, because sounds better.
In general, I heard that delta sigma is more modern design but r2r have more vintage/old style sound so a lot of people prefer it :D

What I've learned in this forum is that you should test to know which dac is better. So, I don't see the test for Protodac, until proven otherwise we cannot say whether it is actually better or worse than what you say. I don't understand how you can affirm with scientific certainty that this is so.

I'm a computer programmer, the only way that I know if my software is working are called unit testing and functional testing.

Unit testing is test each components separately, if every components works properly I've more chance that my software will work.

So, using this logic, I assume that to understand is one chip is better than another one I need to test it to prove that the conversion is better, I can't find such test, so I can't have any prove.

EDIT:

One thing I can't understand is why it bothers many that the signal has a different nuance and timbre, when the digital signal itself is different from the analogue one from the start. honestly, the idea I have of hifi is something that must be liked in terms of sound, but will never be similar to reality.

I have heard systems costing from 200 to 200,000 euros, no orchestra really resembles the one reproduced by speakers.

Perhaps trying to faithfully reproduce reality is not the right path, perhaps seeking a pleasant sound is more so. I once heard at San Fedele, a place where they have about seventy speakers all around a room, "acusmatic music", which play at the same time (speakers of a certain quality), playing a recording on a magnetic tape.

I've never heard such a vivid sound coming out of speakers, it was truly impressive.
 
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DanielT

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What ZolaIII said in #56.Gadgets that really help create a better sound.:)

Having an even frequency response is something that most people consider the most important thing to get good sound. You don't want it to sound too much or too little at certain frequencies. Even with really good speakers, there will be problems or let's say challenges with them in a normal listening room. Then you want to fix it, remove the peaks and valleys in the frequency curve to get that nice sound you want. Then the stuff that ZolaIII mentions will help create that nice sound.

To exemplify it:

To illustrate, here's how my Neumann KH120A measure at my desk at only ~70cm listening distance, and compared to anechoic "listening window" (LW) response:
Neumann KH 120A - spin LW vs in-room MMM - without EQ.png



You can clearly see the chaos the room introduces below ~1kHz (and especially below ~200Hz) :)
The wide dip between 60-100Hz as well at the sharp peak at 130Hz are both very audible at any listening level.

Luckily both can be corrected by integrating a subwoofer and using only 3 bands of PEQ, resulting in IMHO pretty amazing sound:

Neumann KH120A with Adam Sub7 (with 3-band PEQ for room corrections).png


From #3 in the thread:
 

DanielT

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@Blumlein 88 As I'm new in this field, I don't know if you are right or not, because I've absolutely not idea without a proper knowledge about DACs.
But, what I can tell if about what that FB group said te me about DACS: you can build DIY something that is better than commercial solution, because:

- you can choose chip, in this case you try to replicate TDA1541 without using the same amount of discrete components because you are using 8 x TDA1387 in parallel: this will reduce the distorsion rate of the conversion.
- you can choose a reclock that is way better than in commercial solution, like Ian Canada reclokers to reduce jitter
- you can choose best quality components, that are few, like condensers and resistors, hand crafted resistors by Charcroft, that will clean and purify interferences and distorsions
- you can choose to separate power supply (galvanic isolation)
- you can choose the power supply
- you can use Camilla DSP for free, to create audio processing pipelines for applications such as active crossovers or room correction
- you can modify settings in Raspberry, as you have the full control of the software like Moode or Volumio, and a lot of settings

So, you have something in hand that you can modify to accomplish everything you have in mind, and you can build something that can getting better and better.

smsl-d-6-dac is really good, as based on ak4493, that peoples in FB pages said that is one of the best that thay have testes, along with ESS9038Q2M and CS43198.
But when they tried TDA1387 they replaced all of those dacs and used it as reference dac, because sounds better.
In general, I heard that delta sigma is more modern design but r2r have more vintage/old style sound so a lot of people prefer it :D

What I've learned in this forum is that you should test to know which dac is better. So, I don't see the test for Protodac, until proven otherwise we cannot say whether it is actually better or worse than what you say. I don't understand how you can affirm with scientific certainty that this is so.

I'm a computer programmer, the only way that I know if my software is working are called unit testing and functional testing.

Unit testing is test each components separately, if every components works properly I've more chance that my software will work.

So, using this logic, I assume that to understand is one chip is better than another one I need to test it to prove that the conversion is better, I can't find such test, so I can't have any prove.
Ok, you are a computer programmer and mention yourself you can use Camilla DSP for free, to create audio processing pipelines for applications such as active crossovers or room correction. Then you already know what ZolaIII mentioned that I asked him to elaborate on.:)
 
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