Harman preference curve for headphones - am I the only one that doesn't like this curve?

[Robbo99999]

Those PEQ values and band types are different to oratory1990's (latest?) PEQ adjustments here:

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990/harman_over-ear_2018/Focal Elegia

Oratory's latest EQ's and measurements are to found on his site:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets
Relying on jaakkopasanen's copying of his measurements is not quite as reliable as I don't imagine he crawls Oratory's database that often (but I don't know), though it's better to get it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Am I alone here in really not liking Harman preference curve?

I find the excess bass unpleasant and false on the sort of music I listen to, mainly classical, but I understand most people listen to pop music and like extra bass. I was like that for at least the first 10 years of my listening life.

 

[Feelas]

I find the excess bass unpleasant and false on the sort of music I listen to, mainly classical, but I understand most people listen to pop music and like extra bass. I was like that for at least the first 10 years of my listening life.

I can understand why one would like lower bass levels and that there are multiple factors for that, but dumping it on "people listening to pop music" is nonsensical and unfounded.

I guess not many people care enough to get the bass levels down from room-boosted ones...

 

[Berwhale]

Those PEQ values and band types are different to oratory1990's (latest?) PEQ adjustments here:

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/oratory1990/harman_over-ear_2018/Focal Elegia

Read this... index/faq - oratory1990 (reddit.com)

Initially, I also used AutoEQ generated PEQ settings - they are, after all, a lot easier to import into PEACE. However, I recently spent some time transcribing oratory1990's settings into PEACE and i'm finding the results pleasing.

Of course, this is subject to massive confirmation bias, I spent much more time and effort entering oratory1990's settings into PEACE, so they *must* be better than the 'cheap' AutoEQ generated settings

Note that oratory1990's PEQ settings use more filter types than AutoEQ (which are all peaking in my experience), oratory uses shelving filters and you need to use the sheving filter 'with (Q as slope) e.g. here's the settings for my HD 660s...

 

[Dealux]

Read this... index/faq - oratory1990 (reddit.com)

Initially, I also used AutoEQ generated PEQ settings - they are, after all, a lot easier to import into PEACE. However, I recently spent some time transcribing oratory1990's settings into PEACE and i'm finding the results pleasing.

Of course, this is subject to massive confirmation bias, I spent much more time and effort entering oratory1990's settings into PEACE, so they *must* be better than the 'cheap' AutoEQ generated settings

Note that oratory1990's PEQ settings use more filter types than AutoEQ (which are all peaking in my experience), oratory uses shelving filters and you need to use the sheving filter 'with (Q as slope) e.g. here's the settings for my HD 660s...

View attachment 108099

You have to use a pre-amp there lol. Based on the amount of bass you boosted I'd say about -7 dB to prevent clipping. Alternatively click on the sine wave button below the effects button to see how far above the 0 dB line you are when you boost stuff. You need to stay below 0 dB to avoid clipping with EQ. HD6X0 stuff already clips anyway with bass heavy content (my HD600 rattled from the bass distortion on some songs).

 

[Frank Dernie]

but dumping it on "people listening to pop music" is nonsensical and unfounded.

Just based on myself.
The huge majority of people only listen to popular music and the majority prefer the bass boost, is not unfounded IMO.
When I mainly (in fact almost only) listened to pop music I preferred a bassy response, now I find, for example, the response Amir proposed in his Audyssey review, to be horrible when I use it, even on the TV sound. I have adjusted my Audyssey curve to be natural and end up with the bog standard gentle slope down from bass to treble that has been recommended for 50 years.
Excess bass completely ruins orchestral balance, for example, and the Harman "preferred" response sounds nothing like "high fidelity to the original recording" on ANY of the classical recordings I have tried it with and nothing like "accurate" on my own recordings.

It doesn't bother me as much on pop music, apart from knowing in the back of my mind it is "wrong".

 

[thewas]

I think we should differentiate more between 60-80s and newer pop/rock/commercial music, the first one was often mixed quite bass shy due to several reasons and there a Harman bass boost can make it sound more neutral, while on some good newer recording its too much.

 

[Dealux]

I think we should differentiate more between 60-80s and newer pop/rock/commercial music, the first one was often mixed quite bass shy due to several reasons and there a Harman bass boost can make it sound more neutral, while on some good newer recording its too much.

I think it's alright honestly. The in-ear target's bass boost is more excessive though and that version of the target is a bit more controversial.

 

[daftcombo]

I suspect that most people who say they don't like the Harman curve have EQed theit headphones to the Harman curve based on a frequency response graph where the Harman curve was already applied.

 

[thewas]

I think it's alright honestly. The in-ear target's bass boost is more excessive though and that version of the target is a bit more controversial.

I find it with good recordings and normal to high listening levels too much, its ok though when listened with less than 80dB as its a kind of loudness compensation.

 

[Jimbob54]

I find it hit and miss. For some of my cans it makes a massive improvement, it ruins some and some I need to tweak quite heavily.

In an ideal world the same person who's measurements and EQ give me satisfaction on one set(lets say Oratory1990 or similar) would have measured and derived EQ for all my headphones but as it stands , there are some of mine not measured and EQ anywhere, some with multiple different measurements. It is something of a crapshoot. But that may be more of a measurement issue than with Harman per se.

I think it is possible to be too hairshirted about all of this and we are seeing cases where some folks are moving from advocacy into dogma. To my mind, this should be discouraged.

 

[Thomas savage]

No, there are plenty of folks not preferring the Harman curve. The majority of 'average' users does have a similar preference and that's where most sales are made. That ultimately was the goal for Harman to find out... what the general public preferred so they could sell headphones tuned to that type of signature. In all the research done it was also clear that not everyone liked that curve. Some preferred eve more bass, others less.
The curve has been revised over the years for that reason. One learns as one goes.

I prefer Harman-ish myself.

I dont really understand using the Harman curve as a enduser , its a designation arrived at as a means to sell headphones based on research about peoples preferences but as pointed out quite a few people would prefer something different albeit maybe a tweak to top or bottom and the research bares this out as far as I can tell.

The idea the Harman curve is some universal 'right way' for everyone and every headphone is more religion than science and encouraged by places that worship the research and gather together online to baske in their righteous virtue and wisdom.

Phones have adaptive EQ that tests your hearing and uses that information to adjust the frequency curve , to me that makes some sense.

One should certainly try things out without fear of being painted a heretic lol

 

[Berwhale]

You have to use a pre-amp there lol. Based on the amount of bass you boosted I'd say about -7 dB to prevent clipping. Alternatively click on the sine wave button below the effects button to see how far above the 0 dB line you are when you boost stuff. You need to stay below 0 dB to avoid clipping with EQ. HD6X0 stuff already clips anyway with bass heavy content (my HD600 rattled from the bass distortion on some songs).

I know, I have -7.4 applied, I don't know why my earlier screen grab showed 0.0, it's probably related to the UI refresh PEACE does when appying new settings to EAPO.

 

[Jimbob54]

I dont really understand using the Harman curve as a enduser , its a designation arrived at as a means to sell headphones based on research about peoples preferences but as pointed out quite a few people would prefer something different albeit maybe a tweak to top or bottom .

The idea the Harman curve is some universal 'right way' for everyone and every headphone is more religion than science and encouraged by places that worship the research and gather together online to baske in their righteous virtue and wisdom.

Phones have adaptive EQ that tests your hearing and uses that information to adjust the frequency curve , to me that makes some sense.

One should certainly try things out without fear of being painted a heretic lol

*claps*

 

[zenki]

I think harman curve is ok except when it overboost something like ~12db

 

[Feelas]

I dont really understand using the Harman curve as a enduser , its a designation arrived at as a means to sell headphones based on research about peoples preferences but as pointed out quite a few people would prefer something different albeit maybe a tweak to top or bottom and the research bares this out as far as I can tell.

The idea the Harman curve is some universal 'right way' for everyone and every headphone is more religion than science and encouraged by places that worship the research and gather together online to baske in their righteous virtue and wisdom.

Quite right! Since the curve based on an averaged HRTF, which should end up with a curve that deviates from everyone's response, but the deviation for everyone is less than if you used some specific HRTF. It is quite obvious why that can work and why that doesn't work pretty often, yet the idea is not purely marketing-based; it is based on pure statistical knowledge.

And what's the most important for the end user- deviates in a known way, so when you get Harman & know what you don't like in it, you can tweak easily. Get K371 and, since the bass is overboosted & THD is low, when you EQ, it doesn't break.

I think it's alright honestly. The in-ear target's bass boost is more excessive though and that version of the target is a bit more controversial.

IEM bass boost is controversial, yet not quite unfounded - it is based on research concerning how to compensate for lack of bodily bass perception in IEMs.

 

[Thomas savage]

IEM bass boost is controversial, yet not quite unfounded - it is based on research concerning how to compensate for lack of bodily bass perception in IEMs.

With their size any base boost has to be a ' cant have your cake and eat it ' scenario for IMEs ?

Generally iv preferred IME over a full headphone , not always but still.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I think we should differentiate more between 60-80s and newer pop/rock/commercial music, the first one was often mixed quite bass shy due to several reasons and there a Harman bass boost can make it sound more neutral, while on some good newer recording its too much.

Maybe.
In the 60s and early 70s I listened exclusively to pop music (I use the term as a generic catch all) but by the end of the 70s it was almost entirely classical (again generic catch all).
Now I am still nostalgic for my old records but only listen to pop 10% of the time at most.

 

[Feelas]

With their size any base boost has to be a ' cant have your cake and eat it ' scenario for IMEs ?

Generally iv preferred IME over a full headphone , not always but still.

Well, this is proposed, but remember that people who grew up on using smaller speakers and/or headphones might not be accustomed to the amplified bass due to body response.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well, this is proposed, but remember that people who grew up on using smaller speakers and/or headphones might not be accustomed to the amplified bass due to body response.

That's interesting, much like music venues influencing music and trends the way we consume music informs what we want and expect from our playback devices .