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Genelec options for dedicated home theater.

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Xander33

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That's awesome. If you don't push your limits, you'll never know what they are lol. I wouldn't push past reference for any prolonged period of watching movies anyhow. True reference volume is pretty loud when sustained. I'm going to look at a bunch of horn designs now and see what will most easily fit the bill dimensions wise.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Also, if you use a Trinnov, it has this feature called multi-way speaker that allows you to send each source channel to your own channel with custom crossovers and speakers. This means that you could send content from each channel to all subs at 80Hz, to the sub(s) closest to the speaker at 80-120Hz or even 80-150Hz or 80-200Hz, and then to the speaker from 200Hz on up. You would eliminate any potential localization problems from the subs and have as much headroom as possible.
 
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Xander33

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The biggest issue, on the surface, is that every horn design I'm seeing has the mouth in the wrong place based on it's dimensions, for my use. I want to make something as close to ideal height for a ''stand" for the lcr, but not eat up 3+ft behind the screen. I'm planning 24" of depth behind the screen wall, but more than that starts to eat up very valuable room length. I'm going to continue searching this and see if anything out there works without me having to get a completely new design done. I just don't have the skill to design a proper horn sub on my own and count on it to perform properly.
 
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Xander33

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I could probably do that and it would likely be close to ideal sub placement in most cases. The eq in the trinnov will still allow for using the subs up to 150 or 200hz without any issues? Again, I'd prefer running it all behind the screen wall to keep the room aesthetics as clean as possible, but I wouldn't rule this out. Maybe I have to try my hand at hornresp and then ask for some guidance once I have a basic design idea.
 

Sancus

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That could certainly be useful. I spent the better part of last night reading the thread on the w371a and trying to educated myself as much as I could. It seems it fits the bill much more in suboptimal rooms and where monitors can't be built into a baffle wall, and that if more output than the 8361 is needed, the larger mains might be the best solution. Am I way off on this?
Yeah, that's probably correct. I don't know if Genelec even recommends soffiting the W371, they might not. I just personally wouldn't want to give up the perfect 3D directivity of the coaxials for extra output :)

You might ask [email protected] about this btw, they might have a more detailed recommendation. They respond much faster and better than most company customer support.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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I could probably do that and it would likely be close to ideal sub placement in most cases. The eq in the trinnov will still allow for using the subs up to 150 or 200hz without any issues? Again, I'd prefer running it all behind the screen wall to keep the room aesthetics as clean as possible, but I wouldn't rule this out. Maybe I have to try my hand at hornresp and then ask for some guidance once I have a basic design idea.
Yes, the Trinnov would allow you to cross over the subs that high and fix any localization problems, assuming your subs are placed in the room in such a way that there is a sub close enough to each speaker. If you did one sub in each corner you would be good.

I wouldn't cross over higher than 150Hz on the Othorns.
 
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Xander33

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Yeah, that's probably correct. I don't know if Genelec even recommends soffiting the W371, they might not. I just personally wouldn't want to give up the perfect 3D directivity of the coaxials for extra output :)

You might ask [email protected] about this btw, they might have a more detailed recommendation. They respond much faster and better than most company customer support.

Good advice and thoughts for sure. More so that mounting the 371 that way, I was trying to figure if a different main should be used and baffle wall mounted, or maybe if just the 8361 is used (if the 300hz on down to maybe 150-120 is capable enough) with a little more complex sub system like @nerdoldnerdith suggested. At that point I could actually save depth behind the screen and lose some of the restriction on horn sub size. If I'm crossing low enough to the horn sub, would I not maintain the constant directivity all the way down still?
I'm sure Paul will have plenty of thoughts to share on this Friday when I visit, with regard to the capabilities of the 8351 and 61 as lcr output wise down to certain frequencies. Of course now this new idea has me thinking money savings s adding the trio of 371s and using those funds for a Trinnov with higher channel count and processing capabilities.
 
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Xander33

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There are actually a huge number of devastator designs on AVS that could work potentially and it seems some of the design folks are willing to do alterations to them in order to fit certain spaces, so that may work out. Issue becomes fitting a design that actually uses the NSW....which really isn't a big deal, as they would sell and I could use lesser expensive, but very capable drivers instead for the horn.
 
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Xander33

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Yeah, that's probably correct. I don't know if Genelec even recommends soffiting the W371, they might not. I just personally wouldn't want to give up the perfect 3D directivity of the coaxials for extra output :)

You might ask [email protected] about this btw, they might have a more detailed recommendation. They respond much faster and better than most company customer support.

And just going back to this, of course my ADD and indecisive nature kick in....a trio of the 371 under the lcr would of course boost the output max at that range and get me more than enough from 35hz-where the 8351 or 61 will take over, leaving no reason to design cabinets and build horns (not needing any extra output). As far as the cost, I could look at it as paying a premium to gain another foot in room length....not that a foot is worth that much money. That though, coupled with the idea that the 371 might yield the best results paired with the LCR could make a case to buy those 371s. It's a dilemma for sure lol.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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The W371A's aren't really designed to be subwoofers. They would give you a little bit more output than the 8361A's, but not as much as you would hope for in a home theater. They are really designed to control boundary interference with the front wall or ceiling and floor. The cardioid technology is really cool, and I can attest to how good it sounds with my Dutch&Dutch 8C's, but you can also solve the same issue for significantly less by mounting the speakers into the wall with the Genelec soffit mount kit or your own solution. You can also solve the issue by placing bass traps behind the monitors. The W371A is a very expensive way to solve the problem of boundary interference.
 
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Xander33

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The W371A's aren't really designed to be subwoofers. They would give you a little bit more output than the 8361A's, but not as much as you would hope for in a home theater. They are really designed to control boundary interference with the front wall or ceiling and floor. The cardioid technology is really cool, and I can attest to how good it sounds with my Dutch&Dutch 8C's, but you can also solve the same issue for significantly less by mounting the speakers into the wall with the Genelec soffit mount kit or your own solution. You can also solve the issue by placing bass traps behind the monitors. The W371A is a very expensive way to solve the problem of boundary interference.
I agree, I guess I was thinking if I limited how far down I asked the 371 to play, they’d scream…I guess even if they did, that’s a lot of money for a little gain that could be had for a lot less. I see the flush mount kits for the 8351, but not the 61. I guess if the solution becomes horn and sealed sub combo that doesn’t much matter because the 51 won’t be playing much low enough to realize a disadvantage to the 61. I’ll be interested to hear genelecs thoughts.
 

jhenderson0107

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I agree, I guess I was thinking if I limited how far down I asked the 371 to play, they’d scream…I guess even if they did, that’s a lot of money for a little gain that could be had for a lot less. I see the flush mount kits for the 8351, but not the 61. I guess if the solution becomes horn and sealed sub combo that doesn’t much matter because the 51 won’t be playing much low enough to realize a disadvantage to the 61. I’ll be interested to hear genelecs thoughts.
My 7.3.6 home theater setup consists of 8361As front and rear, 8351As on the sides, three RS1 subs. I've experimented with crossing over from the 8361s to the subs throughout the range 40-80 Hz using 24-48 dB/oct filters. I've converged on preferring a 40 Hz crossover for music and 60 Hz crossover for movies. Ironically, I prefer a flat target curve for music and a gentle, full-band downward-sloping target for movies.

Consequently, the subs contribute very little to music listening. I find musical presentation to be articulate, coherent and enjoyable. Plenty of clean, powerful bass when it's present in the recording. The 8361s really don't need any help with music material at my typical listening levels (90 dBA is too loud for my tastes).
 
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Xander33

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My 7.3.6 home theater setup consists of 8361As front and rear, 8351As on the sides, three RS1 subs. I've experimented with crossing over from the 8361s to the subs throughout the range 40-80 Hz using 24-48 dB/oct filters. I've converged on preferring a 40 Hz crossover for music and 60 Hz crossover for movies. Ironically, I prefer a flat target curve for music and a gentle, full-band downward-sloping target for movies.

Consequently, the subs contribute very little to music listening. I find musical presentation to be articulate, coherent and enjoyable. Plenty of clean, powerful bass when it's present in the recording. The 8361s really don't need any help with music material at my typical listening levels (90 dBA is too loud for my tastes).
That's interesting, 40hz to the 8361. Maybe it's because I haven't gotten to hear them yet (tomorrow), but They just seem so small to run down to 60hz with authority. I get the curve preference. My primary use will be movies and higher than average output, so I wonder if the advantages of the 8361 in imagining etc over something like the 1234a will be worth it for me or the larger main is needed.

The other advantage of something like the 1234A for me is I can run it down to 40hz or even a hair lower, get crazy midbass impact mounted in a baffle wall, and just run 24" subs from there on down. It's confusing at this point to say the least.
 
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Xander33

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Just a little update on my search here. I was able to demo a full "one's" system at the Natick Ma headquarters on Friday last week. The setup was a trio of the 8351b+w371 and then 8341s for surround and height channels. The guys at Genelec were great. They let me run the controls and choose whatever tracks and clips I wanted to hear. The downside on clips is that the projector wasn't running, so I'd be hearing the soundtrack and looking at a tiny image on the computer screen....it does take away from the experience, however the sound was still great. With music imaging was outstanding and I found nothing forward or fatiguing in the least bit....the sound characteristics were very much to my liking, with one exception. I felt everything sounded a bit thin on the bottom(maybe 200+/- hz on down. They were bass managing with a 15" of their subs and it was certainly limited (I'm a bit of a basshead), but that wasn't what concerned me, it was that 200 or so hz range down to 80hz I said above. There wasn't a real weight to it in most tracks, no physical hit to the chest by the kickdrum, no string plucks that you really "felt". Initially it had me concerned, but I'm thinking more and more that I was listening to cuts from producers that were fairly flat, in a room that is extremely flat and maybe it's just that. "Thanks to You" was one of the only songs that I felt real weight in. The image was huge and enveloping and made me grin for sure. I was very clear with the guys about how I felt something lacking in the woofer stands range of frequencies. They are working on a demo for me to hear the 1234A now and see how that goes. We talked at length about my room, my needs and preferences, etc. and they say that at the distances I'll be in either row (somewhere between 12 and 20 respectively, pending final room design) I'll get all the attributes of the "ones", but with much more output and attack. They did recommend the AC version which is stacked vertically as well. Their thought was that the 1234AC could have all the output needed all the way down to 35-40hz, and then I'd cross to the 24s for the ULF, keeping it simpler than running multiple subs at different ranges. I'm not apposed to doing that still, but only if need be, and it would probably be the NSW sealed from 40-120 rather than a horn, just because of form factor. This post is sort of all over, but wanted to give my impressions and thoughts and also see what you all think of my observations of the "thin" sound in the midbass.
 

sarumbear

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The biggest issue, on the surface, is that every horn design I'm seeing has the mouth in the wrong place based on it's dimensions, for my use.
Why not turn the speakers upside-down? Toole did that for the very tall Salon2
 

sarumbear

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This post is sort of all over, but wanted to give my impressions and thoughts and also see what you all think of my observations of the "thin" sound in the midbass.
In my experience that’s the description of flat room/speaker interaction. You are basically complaining about the lack of room modes :)
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Glad your demo went well. I'd love to visit them some day.

I've never seen measurements of the 1234AC in the vertical configuration, so I can't say how it would compare to the 8361A. However, just looking at the measurements that exist, it doesn't seem to be as well-refined as the Ones. You would have to mount it into your wall to get the best out of it.

And it would be able to deliver satisfying bass down to 40Hz, but it is still a far cry from the NSW's you already have, even in a sealed configuration. There is just nothing that will compare to a 21" cone with 21mm of xmax and a 6.3" voice coil. You already have them, so you may as well use them.
 
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Xander33

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In my experience that’s the description of flat room/speaker interaction. You are basically complaining about the lack of room modes :)
Lol, that could very well be. It was secondary impact or anything like that which was missing, it was that I never had the initial attack from the note. Could still be a dead room and tuned dead flat so it seems that way....which in the end would be a positive because I'm starting with an extremely neutral speaker and can flavor it a bit if need be. From home theater, that lower end impact will be key
 
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