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Genelec options for dedicated home theater.

nerdoldnerdith

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Fantastic!! Man, I'm jealous!!

I'm in CT, and appreciate that invite. I usually have come out that way in April for Axpona with some buddies, but we aren't this year. Are you using 51 for bed layer and 41s for heights?
8351B's for L/R, 8341A's for surrounds, 8331A's for front heights, 8320A'S for surround heights. They are all connected via GLM.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Fantastic!! Man, I'm jealous!!

I'm in CT, and appreciate that invite. I usually have come out that way in April for Axpona with some buddies, but we aren't this year. Are you using 51 for bed layer and 41s for heights?
Maybe you can make a trip out to Genelec in Natick, MA? They also have a full immersive audio setup with their Ones that I believe the public can demo.
 

youngho

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That may be what is still in there now. I had thought it was 8361 LCR and 51 everywhere else, but I could be misremembering my conversation with Paul.
It's possible that it's changed since then. Please report back on your visit.
The treatment plan is going to be spec'd by the room designer and the plan is to use either the Storm ISP24 or the Trinnov (I prefer the idea of the Storm because it's not a pc, but is still modular and upgradeable). The Trinnov would be great too, but I have seen them be "buggy" and have heard stories of funky behavior and reboots needed all the time when one wants to use the system.
Just curious. I wonder whether your setup may vary significantly what I've seen online for Atmos mixing studios or control rooms, where even things like floor bounce are addressed by the desk. The Genelec Experience Room in Natick is highly treated, even the ceiling.
Not sure how exactly to answer the issues with previous setups. I've tried a number of things and I guess as we all know, there's always some compromise. I am just looking to minimize that compromise and find a speaker that has the dynamics, visceral attack, low level intelligibility and the finesse all in one. This will also be the first time I have two spaces and can use the second for casual/relaxing 2 channel listening and not sit and be critical of it. Based on that, I want to put something in the HT that will render sound exactly as mixed, giving a larger chance or being "transported" to the scene itself and it's environment.
I think that "exactly as mixed" is a bit of an impossible goal, but certainly the Genelec brand name will give you the feeling of professional grade, and the measurements are quite good. It may be worth contacting the users Soundmixer and Audio2920 here.
 
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Xander33

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Maybe you can make a trip out to Genelec in Natick, MA? They also have a full immersive audio setup with their Ones that I believe the public can demo.
I’m heading there this Friday for a demo session with Paul
 
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Xander33

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If you build a dedicated room, you may not need Storm/Trinnov on top of GLM. You are paying twice for room correction and adding complexity.

Do you want to optimise for seat to seat variations or for 1 golden seat? I would not choose the same speakers in both cases.
Can the GLM handle multiple sets of speakers on the sides for multi row rooms and such? That’s what I was really buying the storm or trinnov for in the first place. In my size room I don’t think I’ll need more than 9.x.6

Ideally I’ll optimize for my seat as much as I can without detracting from the others too much. No one else will be anywhere near as critical as me in the room, but I’d like all to get the immersive experience
 

Sancus

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That makes sense, thanks! What are your thoughts on the above response and idea that I'd be using the NSW for the 120hz and down or so, vs the 371? Of course the NSW is far more capable output wise, but maybe there is an argument to use both? It just seems to start spreading a small range over a lot of drivers. When you say the 317/8361 combo will do 120db, at how low a frequency do you think it could maintain that? I'd also have the ability to use a baffle wall to reinforce (as long as the 8361 can be flushed).
It's hard to say, but based on Genelec's specs, maybe down to 80-100hz or so.

I haven't experimented with crossovers above 100hz but it's certainly an option.
 
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Xander33

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It's hard to say, but based on Genelec's specs, maybe down to 80-100hz or so.

I haven't experimented with crossovers above 100hz but it's certainly an option.
That could certainly be useful. I spent the better part of last night reading the thread on the w371a and trying to educated myself as much as I could. It seems it fits the bill much more in suboptimal rooms and where monitors can't be built into a baffle wall, and that if more output than the 8361 is needed, the larger mains might be the best solution. Am I way off on this?
 
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Xander33

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Just further thought based on the above.....is maybe the most economical solution (without sacrificing and performance) to flush mount the 8361a tri in a baffle wall and then use your own combination of ported for the say 30-100hz range and monster sealed from 30hxz down? Does flush mounting the 8361 and running it down to 100hz basically accomplish the same thing as adding the woofer stands to it in an in room type setting. I just keep reading the long w371 thread and it feels like the big issue is folks not wanting to flush mount mains or not having the space etc, but when the room can be built from scratch and as close to ideal as is possible (which I'm doing with the help of the HT designer), the 371 loses much of what it brings to the table.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Just further thought based on the above.....is maybe the most economical solution (without sacrificing and performance) to flush mount the 8361a tri in a baffle wall and then use your own combination of ported for the say 30-100hz range and monster sealed from 30hxz down? Does flush mounting the 8361 and running it down to 100hz basically accomplish the same thing as adding the woofer stands to it in an in room type setting. I just keep reading the long w371 thread and it feels like the big issue is folks not wanting to flush mount mains or not having the space etc, but when the room can be built from scratch and as close to ideal as is possible (which I'm doing with the help of the HT designer), the 371 loses much of what it brings to the table.
Not a good idea to try to cross over ported and sealed like that. The port tuning should be at the bottom end of whatever system you are running.
 
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Xander33

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Not a good idea to try to cross over ported and sealed like that. The port tuning should be at the bottom end of whatever system you are running.
You know, I had always felt that way in my own experience, but then figured maybe my ability to calibrate and make them work together was the culprit. It seems many home theater diy guys do these with results they are happy with. Do you think many may just not know that their results aren't great? I was thinking of trying to maximize output and impact from a pro style ported (NSW21) and use the larger 24" drivers as ULF.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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You know, I had always felt that way in my own experience, but then figured maybe my ability to calibrate and make them work together was the culprit. It seems many home theater diy guys do these with results they are happy with. Do you think many may just not know that their results aren't great? I was thinking of trying to maximize output and impact from a pro style ported (NSW21) and use the larger 24" drivers as ULF.
Put the NSW's in some Othorn cabs and you will have all the crazy 30Hz output of a ported sub without the port compression and phase wonkiness that you get from ported enclosures.
 
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Xander33

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Put the NSW's in some Othorn cabs and you will have all the crazy 30Hz output of a ported sub without the port compression and phase wonkiness that you get from ported enclosures.
So, like you're original recommendation and then use the 24s for 30 and below? Pardon my ignorance, why would the horn and sealed integrate better than a ported NSW, like the "marty" or something like that? Just because it's tuned higher? I was thinking ported just for simplicity sake when building, but if the horn is that much better and can integrate with 2 or even 4 of the 24s I don't mind putting in the effort to build them. Any of those options is far less money that three of the 371's. Now, if the 371's offer above reference output to 35hz or so at my MLP, and integrate better and easier I'd not be opposed to spending on those either. My issue is I know just enough on my own to get myself into trouble and am still learning a great deal. I'd defer to the room designer as well, but the answer from them is "a full triad or procella, etc etc system with subs of their own brand". I would much rather sort the most capable system out on my own (with help from more educated folks like yourself and the others here, and then have the designer and calibrator work around that since the room is new construction and I don't have to make the compromises associated with a retro-fit.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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So, like you're original recommendation and then use the 24s for 30 and below? Pardon my ignorance, why would the horn and sealed integrate better than a ported NSW, like the "marty" or something like that? Just because it's tuned higher? I was thinking ported just for simplicity sake when building, but if the horn is that much better and can integrate with 2 or even 4 of the 24s I don't mind putting in the effort to build them. Any of those options is far less money that three of the 371's. Now, if the 371's offer above reference output to 35hz or so at my MLP, and integrate better and easier I'd not be opposed to spending on those either. My issue is I know just enough on my own to get myself into trouble and am still learning a great deal. I'd defer to the room designer as well, but the answer from them is "a full triad or procella, etc etc system with subs of their own brand". I would much rather sort the most capable system out on my own (with help from more educated folks like yourself and the others here, and then have the designer and calibrator work around that since the room is new construction and I don't have to make the compromises associated with a retro-fit.
A ported subwoofer has a phase shift (group delay) around the port tune. It is just how the physics of ported subwoofers work. If you try to mix ported and sealed around this port tune the subwoofers will either be fighting each other and cancelling each other out at this frequency, or you would have to invert the phase of the ported sub and create a lot of delay in the upper frequencies. There is really no good way to cross subs over this way.

A tapped horn like the Othorn would integrate with the sealed on the bottom because it doesn't have the same group delay just by the nature of how it is designed. The front firing and rear firing sections of the sub are both in phase with each other, so the subwoofer basically just acts like a sealed or transmission line enclosure. You could get the same thing from a front loaded horn, but a tapped horn gives you even more output.

A horn like the Othorn would have so much more output than the 371's it's not even funny. We are talking about ridiculous amounts of bass here, but it is squeaky clean, chest-thumping, awesome bass. You'll love it.

If you don't want to make the enclosures you could buy Orbit Shifters from JTR or tapped horns from Danley, but I just suggested you make them since you already have the drivers.
 
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Xander33

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A ported subwoofer has a phase shift (group delay) around the port tune. It is just how the physics of ported subwoofers work. If you try to mix ported and sealed around this port tune the subwoofers will either be fighting each other and cancelling each other out at this frequency, or you would have to invert the phase of the ported sub and create a lot of delay in the upper frequencies. There is really no good way to cross subs over this way.

A tapped horn like the Othorn would integrate with the sealed on the bottom because it doesn't have the same group delay just by the nature of how it is designed. The front firing and rear firing sections of the sub are both in phase with each other, so the subwoofer basically just acts like a sealed or transmission line enclosure. You could get the same thing from a front loaded horn, but a tapped horn gives you even more output.

A horn like the Othorn would have so much more output than the 371's it's not even funny. We are talking about ridiculous amounts of bass here, but it is squeaky clean, chest-thumping, awesome bass. You'll love it.

If you don't want to make the enclosures you could buy Orbit Shifters from JTR or tapped horns from Danley, but I just suggested you make them since you already have the drivers.

That's great, thank you so much for the explanation!!

Yes, I would definitely just make them, even if I didn't have the drivers already. The savings is to great to ignore. The output will be staggering with a couple of those for sure. I have experienced setups like that and it's fantastic. If I put those under lets say each 8361 and then run an SBA of 24s, I'd think I have enough headroom throughout the range that I could make the curve anything I wanted and run well over reference. My only concern from there would be if the 8361 could keep up at the crossover with the horns. (obviously not flat out at the 130+db the horns can run, but in the high teens to 120db range, which it seems based on the available info, they may be able to do). I just don't want to create a weird imbalance. I will run bass a little hot likely, as I have tended to do in the past, I just want them to be able to integrate well.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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That's great, thank you so much for the explanation!!

Yes, I would definitely just make them, even if I didn't have the drivers already. The savings is to great to ignore. The output will be staggering with a couple of those for sure. I have experienced setups like that and it's fantastic. If I put those under lets say each 8361 and then run an SBA of 24s, I'd think I have enough headroom throughout the range that I could make the curve anything I wanted and run well over reference. My only concern from there would be if the 8361 could keep up at the crossover with the horns. (obviously not flat out at the 130+db the horns can run, but in the high teens to 120db range, which it seems based on the available info, they may be able to do). I just don't want to create a weird imbalance. I will run bass a little hot likely, as I have tended to do in the past, I just want them to be able to integrate well.
It depends on how you boost the bass. The way I run my bass, I am crossing over the 8351B's over to the subs at 120Hz with a 24dB/octave crossover. The subwoofers are routed through the digital output from my MiniDSP to a DAC, which then sends the signal to another active crossover to split the signal between my JTR 2400's for the low end and JTR Growlers for the top end. When I want to turn up the bass, I simply turn up the volume on the DAC, which boosts the signal to the subs without touching the signal going to the speakers.

If you did something like this you could run the bass as hot as you want while maintaining reasonable levels for the speakers.
 
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Xander33

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It depends on how you boost the bass. The way I run my bass, I am crossing over the 8351B's over to the subs at 120Hz with a 24dB/octave crossover. The subwoofers are routed through the digital output from my MiniDSP to a DAC, which then sends the signal to another active crossover to split the signal between my JTR 2400's for the low end and JTR Growlers for the top end. When I want to turn up the bass, I simply turn up the volume on the DAC, which boosts the signal to the subs without touching the signal going to the speakers.

If you did something like this you could run the bass as hot as you want while maintaining reasonable levels for the speakers.

I follow you. JTR is great stuff btw. I've had the pleasure of knowing Jeff a bit since around 2013 and hung with him at multiple GTG's, shows, etc. He's a very cool guy and makes great stuff.

That would work great and my entire sub system, NSWs, 24s, amps etc. would have me out of pocket(taking into account what I've already spent) well less than even a pair of 371s and have wayyyyyyyyy more output capability.

I do want to be able to run hot, just want to be sure I keep it somewhat balanced...hence the concern for the mains. I'm guessing if I ran a devastator or othorn under each of the lcr and down from 120hz down to the ULF, I could be flat at the LP above reference level (with output left on the table sub wise of course) and then bump the subs up to taste.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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I follow you. JTR is great stuff btw. I've had the pleasure of knowing Jeff a bit since around 2013 and hung with him at multiple GTG's, shows, etc. He's a very cool guy and makes great stuff.

That would work great and my entire sub system, NSWs, 24s, amps etc. would have me out of pocket(taking into account what I've already spent) well less than even a pair of 371s and have wayyyyyyyyy more output capability.

I do want to be able to run hot, just want to be sure I keep it somewhat balanced...hence the concern for the mains. I'm guessing if I ran a devastator or othorn under each of the lcr and down from 120hz down to the ULF, I could be flat at the LP above reference level (with output left on the table sub wise of course) and then bump the subs up to taste.
I wish you could come out here and listen to mine... I could let you hear how it sounds when I crank it. Even with my relatively wimpy JTR Growlers I have so much output, and when I turn up the bass it still sounds awesome and well-integrated.
 
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Xander33

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I wish you could come out here and listen to mine... I could let you hear how it sounds when I crank it. Even with my relatively wimpy JTR Growlers I have so much output, and when I turn up the bass it still sounds awesome and well-integrated.

That's really encouraging!! You have no issues with the lcr keeping up to your liking? This solution could result in so much money savings for me.
 
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Xander33

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If this ends up the route, the thing I'll need to figure out is a horn with dimensions that works under each of the 8361 height wise and leaves me the room to place the 24's in large sealed enclosures at the 1/4 points on the baffle wall.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Not personally. The only time I ever drove my Genelecs to clipping was when I was crossing over at 80Hz and doing a bass boost across dubs and speakers and listening at extreme volumes from across the room. I was intentionally listening as loudly as possible to see what kind of tactile effect I could get from the subs I owned before the ones I own now. I would never listen like that ordinarily.
 
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