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Genelec options for dedicated home theater.

Xander33

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Hi All!

New to the group, thank you for the add! I have spent years on AVS, researching, buying gear, building rooms and moving on to the next. It's a great source, but like others, some things get pushed and for whatever reason other brands get no traction. I have had speakers from Dynaudio, B&W, JTR, Focal, Revel, JBL and others. I've also gotten to audition Wisdom, Wilson, Triad, Meridian and countless others. I like the idea very much of having an accurate speaker that renders the same experience the sound engineer set out to create. Of course there may be some seasoning to taste, but all in all accurate is the goal. I will use these for 90% for movie playback and maybe 10% watching sporting events or blu ray concert etc. I am now in the process of building a new dedicated home theater room in my new(to me) home. The room is going to be fully isolated (room within a room, triple dw and green glue, independent hvac system, etc.) and used as a 100% dedicated space. I will have an adjacent room for any two channel casual listening. The space is decent sized, 21x27.5x10.5 acoustically, and will have two rows of seating (the second row looks to be planned at about 18" higher than the first).

So with the background out of the way, the Genelec brand has always intrigued me, as have the great reviews of them. I also am a big fan of active speaker systems. I actually have an appointment this coming Friday in Mass to audition some of the products. I'm quite sure they will have insight and offer opinions on what units fit the application, but I'm also interested in thoughts here from experienced users. I love to watch at ref levels, but also watch with my four children half the time and lower sound level quality is just as important as reference levels. I've had some very high output systems and do like an LCR setup that can "attack" and has real weight to it. Not to be cliche, but I like a speaker that sounds "big" throughout the volume range. The scale of the sound, independent of the volume is something I've always enjoyed. The LCR will be placed behind the screen, the surrounds and atmos behind fabric stretch. I am planning this as a 9.x.6 system at the moment. I've taken a look at the 8361, but have concerns with the visceral attack and ability to hit hard enough in the lets say 80-300hz range. (I'll hear them Friday though). For reference, the front row will be about 15ft from the LCR and the back at 22ft. I have also looked at the 1237, 1238, 1234a for that matter. I know they are much more expensive, but I'd rather invest in the best LCR (that fits my needs) up front. Of course if that kind of fire power isn't needed to accomplish my goals in this setting I'd happily save some $$. The other concern I have is surrounding the depth of cabinets for the surrounds and atmos speakers. I don't want to give up more floor space than I need to, but I also don't want those channels to be lacking. The rear port on many of the designs also kills the on or in wall abilities largely. The 8351 look to be a great fit for atmos, as I can turn them on there side and mount them angled to the main LP without taking up much depth. With regard to surrounds, the 1238df seems to be the shallowest, not rear ported choice. It seems excessive for surrounds, but again isn't that much more money than the 8361 fits better with the room layout.

Sorry to go on and on, I just wanted to be sure to give all the info I could. I'm really interested to get everyone's thoughts on some of these units and their application for me. Thanks!
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Have you looked at the KEF Reference in wall speakers? They would get louder than Genelec and have a similar sound from their coaxial drivers.

I am using 8341A's mounted on wall as surrounds and they work great. The rear port doesn't matter in a home theater setting since you will presumably be crossing over to subs.

TBH I see no reason why using 8361A's for LCR and 8341A's or 8351B's for everything else wouldn't work really well. Put some good subs in there and you will have all the attack you could want.
 

Sancus

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It sounds like you have the budget for W371A + 8361A and that would be better than any of the 12xx main monitors, and should play plenty loud.

Center is >50% of the load in HT so in fact you could probably get away with 1x W371A for the center only.
The rear port on many of the designs also kills the on or in wall abilities largely.
There are flush mount kits for the Ones so clearly Genelec doesn't think it's much of a problem. For on wall, only a couple of inches(5cm) of space is actually necessary, see wall mount.
 
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Xander33

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Have you looked at the KEF Reference in wall speakers? They would get louder than Genelec and have a similar sound from their coaxial drivers.

I am using 8341A's mounted on wall as surrounds and they work great. The rear port doesn't matter in a home theater setting since you will presumably be crossing over to subs.

TBH I see no reason why using 8361A's for LCR and 8341A's or 8351B's for everything else wouldn't work really well. Put some good subs in there and you will have all the attack you could want.

To be honest I hadn't given them thought, but would certainly give them a listen.

I will certainly be crossing to subs. I have some SI 24" drivers still and will use them and likely mix in a couple of ported subs as well. The LF content will be where I have the most firepower.

Really?!?! That would be great, it's just so hard to see those little guys and think they'd do it. I have tried so many other speakers that have single 10", dual 10". 12" drivers and some of those don't even get it done. It would be a welcome surprise.
 
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Xander33

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It sounds like you have the budget for W371A + 8361A and that would be better than any of the 12xx main monitors, and should play plenty loud.

Center is >50% of the load in HT so in fact you could probably get away with 1x W371A for the center only.

There are flush mount kits for the Ones so clearly Genelec doesn't think it's much of a problem. For on wall, only a couple of inches(5cm) of space is actually necessary, see wall mount.
I do, but with the subs I have already (Stereo Integrity 24s and some NSW 21s) I would see the need for the w371a.....unless folks are using that down to 60hz or something and then crossing to larger more capable subs.

I see where you're going on the 371 for center, and then the 24s or something for ulf. The 371/8361 combo is really better than the larger 12XX? Even the likes of the 1234A? What is there about them that makes them lesser? I have not familiarized myself enough with the lineup yet to know. The distance to mlp isn't a concern on the 8361?

That flush mount is interesting and would certainly make things easier.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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I do, but with the subs I have already (Stereo Integrity 24s and some NSW 21s) I would see the need for the w371a.....unless folks are using that down to 60hz or something and then crossing to larger more capable subs.

I see where you're going on the 371 for center, and then the 24s or something for ulf. The 371/8361 combo is really better than the larger 12XX? Even the likes of the 1234A? What is there about them that makes them lesser? I have not familiarized myself enough with the lineup yet to know. The distance to mlp isn't a concern on the 8361?

That flush mount is interesting and would certainly make things easier.
Here is what you should do with the subs:

Use the SI-24's for 0-35Hz, and put the NSW's in some horn loaded enclosures like those designed by Josh Ricci (check out the Othorns) and use them for 35-120Hz. You will have attack for days. Horn subwoofers can attack, violently.
 
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Sancus

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I do, but with the subs I have already (Stereo Integrity 24s and some NSW 21s) I would see the need for the w371a.....unless folks are using that down to 60hz or something and then crossing to larger more capable subs.
The W371A is not a sub, to be clear. It's for increasing output and removing room issues in the mid-bass range primarily. The W371A crossover to the speakers can be as high as 250hz, but is usually 100-200hz autoconfigured. With the W371A an 8361A will play up to ~120dB @ 1m which is more than enough for 4-6m. You DO still need subs for the very low end, as the W371A is only a 14" + 12" woofer.

In a normal domestic room you lose about 3-4dB per distance doubling(per Dr. Toole), so @ 6m you'll lose maybe 10-12dB. That leaves you with plenty of SPL for all listening positions unless you're playing above 85dB calibration(and if you are I feel bad for your ears... lol, Dolby recommends 82-83dB because few people can actually tolerate the full 85dB in small rooms).

I see where you're going on the 371 for center, and then the 24s or something for ulf. The 371/8361 combo is really better than the larger 12XX? Even the likes of the 1234A? What is there about them that makes them lesser? I have not familiarized myself enough with the lineup yet to know. The distance to mlp isn't a concern on the 8361?
The 12XX play super loud for stereo main monitor use cases. But their actual frequency response and dispersion is not as good as the Ones. The Ones sound basically the same at all elevations and off-axis points, the 12XX don't.

Here's a professional Genelec surround setup that might give you some ideas.

 
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Xander33

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Here is what you should do with the subs:

Use the SI-24's for 0-35Hz, and put the NSW's in some horn loaded enclosures like those designed by Josh Ricci (check out the Othorns) and use them for 35-120Hz. You will have attack for days. Horn subwoofers can attack, violently.

That was sort of my thinking. The only worry I have is the NSW playing high enough to be localized at all. Other than that I think it's the recipe for the best bass....it might make things harder on the calibrator, to blend it all perfectly, but I know his capability is up to the task.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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That was sort of my thinking. The only worry I have is the NSW playing high enough to be localized at all. Other than that I think it's the recipe for the best bass....it might make things harder on the calibrator, to blend it all perfectly, but I know his capability is up to the task.
If you have multiple subs place about the room then localizability above 80Hz isn't as much of an issue. I cross all my subs at 120Hz and it sounds great because sound is still coming from every direction.

If you take good measurements you can measure the delay of each sub and time align them perfectly to blend as one source of sound. Multi sub optimizer and Dirac Live Bass Control can also do this.
 
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Xander33

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The W371A is not a sub, to be clear. It's for increasing output and removing room issues in the mid-bass range primarily. The W371A crossover to the speakers can be as high as 250hz, but is usually 100-200hz autoconfigured. With the W371A an 8361A will play up to ~120dB @ 1m which is more than enough for 4-6m. You DO still need subs for the very low end, as the W371A is only a 14" + 12" woofer.

In a normal domestic room you lose about 3-4dB per distance doubling(per Dr. Toole), so @ 6m you'll lose maybe 10-12dB. That leaves you with plenty of SPL for all listening positions unless you're playing above 85dB calibration(and if you are I feel bad for your ears... lol, Dolby recommends 82-83dB because few people can actually tolerate the full 85dB in small rooms).


The 12XX play super loud for stereo main monitor use cases. But their actual frequency response and dispersion is not as good as the Ones. The Ones sound basically the same at all elevations and off-axis points, the 12XX don't.

Here's a professional Genelec surround setup that might give you some ideas.


That makes sense, thanks! What are your thoughts on the above response and idea that I'd be using the NSW for the 120hz and down or so, vs the 371? Of course the NSW is far more capable output wise, but maybe there is an argument to use both? It just seems to start spreading a small range over a lot of drivers. When you say the 317/8361 combo will do 120db, at how low a frequency do you think it could maintain that? I'd also have the ability to use a baffle wall to reinforce (as long as the 8361 can be flushed).

Thanks for the explanation on the 12 series......I wasn't aware of that. That setup looks awesome and seems to be close to what I'll demo at the Genelec HQ Friday.
 
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Xander33

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If you have multiple subs place about the room then localizability above 80Hz isn't as much of an issue. I cross all my subs at 120Hz and it sounds great because sound is still coming from every direction.

If you take good measurements you can measure the delay of each sub and time align them perfectly to blend as one source of sound. Multi sub optimizer and Dirac Live Bass Control can also do this.
Great point. I'll end up discussing that with the room designer now and of course the calibrator afterwards. My only concern would be were it's dictated that the subs should go, and that no working with the design aesthetics of the room. Don't get me wrong, it will be a function first room....I just don't want to have folks stepping over subs to get to the seats lol.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Great point. I'll end up discussing that with the room designer now and of course the calibrator afterwards. My only concern would be were it's dictated that the subs should go, and that no working with the design aesthetics of the room. Don't get me wrong, it will be a function first room....I just don't want to have folks stepping over subs to get to the seats lol.
How many subs do you have?
 
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Xander33

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I have two of the 24s, but can get a couple more from Stereo Integrity. I have 4 of the NSW as well. I just bought the NSW to test them initially, but haven't done so yet. I know they're monsters. I was initially planning an SBA on the baffle wall with either or, but am certainly willing to explore options. I like headroom and having enough to season to taste by pulling back places, rather than having to boost anywhere.
 

youngho

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Hi All!

New to the group, thank you for the add! I have spent years on AVS, researching, buying gear, building rooms and moving on to the next. It's a great source, but like others, some things get pushed and for whatever reason other brands get no traction. I have had speakers from Dynaudio, B&W, JTR, Focal, Revel, JBL and others. I've also gotten to audition Wisdom, Wilson, Triad, Meridian and countless others. I like the idea very much of having an accurate speaker that renders the same experience the sound engineer set out to create. Of course there may be some seasoning to taste, but all in all accurate is the goal. I will use these for 90% for movie playback and maybe 10% watching sporting events or blu ray concert etc. I am now in the process of building a new dedicated home theater room in my new(to me) home. The room is going to be fully isolated (room within a room, triple dw and green glue, independent hvac system, etc.) and used as a 100% dedicated space. I will have an adjacent room for any two channel casual listening. The space is decent sized, 21x27.5x10.5 acoustically, and will have two rows of seating (the second row looks to be planned at about 18" higher than the first).

So with the background out of the way, the Genelec brand has always intrigued me, as have the great reviews of them. I also am a big fan of active speaker systems. I actually have an appointment this coming Friday in Mass to audition some of the products. I'm quite sure they will have insight and offer opinions on what units fit the application, but I'm also interested in thoughts here from experienced users. I love to watch at ref levels, but also watch with my four children half the time and lower sound level quality is just as important as reference levels. I've had some very high output systems and do like an LCR setup that can "attack" and has real weight to it. Not to be cliche, but I like a speaker that sounds "big" throughout the volume range. The scale of the sound, independent of the volume is something I've always enjoyed. The LCR will be placed behind the screen, the surrounds and atmos behind fabric stretch. I am planning this as a 9.x.6 system at the moment. I've taken a look at the 8361, but have concerns with the visceral attack and ability to hit hard enough in the lets say 80-300hz range. (I'll hear them Friday though). For reference, the front row will be about 15ft from the LCR and the back at 22ft. I have also looked at the 1237, 1238, 1234a for that matter. I know they are much more expensive, but I'd rather invest in the best LCR (that fits my needs) up front. Of course if that kind of fire power isn't needed to accomplish my goals in this setting I'd happily save some $$. The other concern I have is surrounding the depth of cabinets for the surrounds and atmos speakers. I don't want to give up more floor space than I need to, but I also don't want those channels to be lacking. The rear port on many of the designs also kills the on or in wall abilities largely. The 8351 look to be a great fit for atmos, as I can turn them on there side and mount them angled to the main LP without taking up much depth. With regard to surrounds, the 1238df seems to be the shallowest, not rear ported choice. It seems excessive for surrounds, but again isn't that much more money than the 8361 fits better with the room layout.

Sorry to go on and on, I just wanted to be sure to give all the info I could. I'm really interested to get everyone's thoughts on some of these units and their application for me. Thanks!
The Genelec room had 8351s for the LCR and 8341s for the surrounds and heights when I visited (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-visit-to-genelec-usa-natick-ma.28687/). Can you provide more details about the plan for acoustic treatments within the room and DSP/EQ, also perhaps a diagram of planned speaker placement? What were the issues with your previous speakers?
 

pierre

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If you have a large budget (and it looks like it is the case), flushmounted the LCRs is a great option 1235 or similar in LCR.
Genelec provides a guide Here. The guide is more for people working in studio working before the music is compressed and they need a lot of headroom (or think they do). In a home theater, where you don’t want to get deaf, you don’t need that much.

3x8361+6x8350+6x8340+ 3x8381 should go a long way. If you want to oversize it, then of course they propose larger speakers for a 5m LP: see the guide. You could also put S360 in LCR and save some.

Contact them directly, they are very knowledgeable. Also you can negotiate with the dealer for this amount.
 
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Xander33

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The Genelec room had 8351s for the LCR and 8341s for the surrounds and heights when I visited (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-visit-to-genelec-usa-natick-ma.28687/). Can you provide more details about the plan for acoustic treatments within the room and DSP/EQ, also perhaps a diagram of planned speaker placement? What were the issues with your previous speakers?

That may be what is still in there now. I had thought it was 8361 LCR and 51 everywhere else, but I could be misremembering my conversation with Paul.

The treatment plan is going to be spec'd by the room designer and the plan is to use either the Storm ISP24 or the Trinnov (I prefer the idea of the Storm because it's not a pc, but is still modular and upgradeable). The Trinnov would be great too, but I have seen them be "buggy" and have heard stories of funky behavior and reboots needed all the time when one wants to use the system.

Not sure how exactly to answer the issues with previous setups. I've tried a number of things and I guess as we all know, there's always some compromise. I am just looking to minimize that compromise and find a speaker that has the dynamics, visceral attack, low level intelligibility and the finesse all in one. This will also be the first time I have two spaces and can use the second for casual/relaxing 2 channel listening and not sit and be critical of it. Based on that, I want to put something in the HT that will render sound exactly as mixed, giving a larger chance or being "transported" to the scene itself and it's environment.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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20220405_132427.jpg


Here is my current Genelec setup. I'm still waiting on some diffusion panels for the side walls.

Where are you located? You are welcome to come take a listen if you are ever in Chicago.
 
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Xander33

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If you have a large budget (and it looks like it is the case), flushmounted the LCRs is a great option 1235 or similar in LCR.
Genelec provides a guide Here. The guide is more for people working in studio working before the music is compressed and they need a lot of headroom (or think they do). In a home theater, where you don’t want to get deaf, you don’t need that much.

3x8361+6x8350+6x8340+ 3x8381 should go a long way. If you want to oversize it, then of course they propose larger speakers for a 5m LP: see the guide. You could also put S360 in LCR and save some.

Contact them directly, they are very knowledgeable. Also you can negotiate with the dealer for this amount.
Thank you! I will look at all of these options as well. Isn't the S360 looked at as "inferior" to the 8351 or 61 though in general, just yielding slightly more output? I will certainly talk to Paul at length when I visit this week as well. My main LP is 15 ft and looking at their guide is what had me questioning the use of the ones series to begin with. I of course won't be listening constantly at deafening levels, but don't want to approach the limits of any of the speakers in the room when listening at reference level.

I was under the understanding the Genelec was price protected in the US??
 
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Xander33

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View attachment 197860

Here is my current Genelec setup. I'm still waiting on some diffusion panels for the side walls.

Where are you located? You are welcome to come take a listen if you are ever in Chicago.
Fantastic!! Man, I'm jealous!!

I'm in CT, and appreciate that invite. I usually have come out that way in April for Axpona with some buddies, but we aren't this year. Are you using 51 for bed layer and 41s for heights?
 

pierre

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That may be what is still in there now. I had thought it was 8361 LCR and 51 everywhere else, but I could be misremembering my conversation with Paul.

The treatment plan is going to be spec'd by the room designer and the plan is to use either the Storm ISP24 or the Trinnov (I prefer the idea of the Storm because it's not a pc, but is still modular and upgradeable). The Trinnov would be great too, but I have seen them be "buggy" and have heard stories of funky behavior and reboots needed all the time when one wants to use the system.

Not sure how exactly to answer the issues with previous setups. I've tried a number of things and I guess as we all know, there's always some compromise. I am just looking to minimize that compromise and find a speaker that has the dynamics, visceral attack, low level intelligibility and the finesse all in one. This will also be the first time I have two spaces and can use the second for casual/relaxing 2 channel listening and not sit and be critical of it. Based on that, I want to put something in the HT that will render sound exactly as mixed, giving a larger chance or being "transported" to the scene itself and it's environment.
If you build a dedicated room, you may not need Storm/Trinnov on top of GLM. You are paying twice for room correction and adding complexity.

Do you want to optimise for seat to seat variations or for 1 golden seat? I would not choose the same speakers in both cases.
 
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