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Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

Spocko

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Yeah true, a lot of very foolish people make a terrible decision to select speakers by going into a carefully treated demo room to listen, sometimes even to dealer-provided demo tracks. Or sometimes they’ll demo in their own home but neglect to realize that their selection of test tracks was picked over time to favor a particular brand of speaker coloration, leading to the circular conclusion that only this brand of speaker sounds best subjectively. Such horribly unreliable ways of selecting speakers, prone to so many biases (including whatever the dealer wants to push) — surely only the most pathetic sort of fools would use such a method..
As a counter-argument excusing some of my youthful "foolishness", back in the 90's, it was literally impossible to buy speakers without entering a dealer show room to find out more about them - where would you get specs and measurements for Sonus Faber or B&W in 1996? Additionally, the massive majority of reviews were all subjective from the likes of Stereophile and Absolute Sound. And most importantly, even if measurements were to be found somewhere - what the heck did they even mean? Many Gen-Xers growing up in this era are so used to this paradigm that they continue to buy in this manner out of habit. Today is definitely a good time to be an audiophile.
 

Pearljam5000

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As a counter-argument excusing some of my youthful "foolishness", back in the 90's, it was literally impossible to buy speakers without entering a dealer show room to find out more about them - where would you get specs and measurements for Sonus Faber or B&W in 1996? Additionally, the massive majority of reviews were all subjective from the likes of Stereophile and Absolute Sound. And most importantly, even if measurements were to be found somewhere - what the heck did they even mean? Many Gen-Xers growing up in this era are so used to this paradigm that they continue to buy in this manner out of habit. Today is definitely a good time to be an audiophile.
99% of audiophiles know 0 about active studio monitors and would never ever consider them for hifi use
There's a psychological barrier , but I'm happy because I feel more special this way :cool:
Plus not all audiophiles even like flat neutral sound, they like tube amps and vinyl.
 

Spocko

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99% of audiophiles know 0 about active studio monitors and would never ever consider them for hifi use
There's a psychological barrier , but I'm happy because I feel more special this way :cool:
Plus not all audiophiles even like flat neutral sound, they like tube amps and vinyl.
So true - don't get me started on the "journey" of discovering the right tube amp to go with exotic speakers to flesh out the highs and add more lows, oh wait, I forgot, this is the "joy" of the audiophile "journey". I saw a review recently about this amazingly dynamic and powerful tube amp that added more bass to a pair of speakers that previously had anemic bass - I almost coughed up my coffee.
 

Spocko

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This is a remarkably deep question. In principle we want the two to be symmetrical. Sound field around the microphone becomes the sound field created by the speaker. The trouble is that idea breaks down almost instantly, and it just becomes worse as we go on. Indeed the trivial intuition about stereophonic reproduction breaks down almost instantly for the same reasons.
Moreover microphones don't even all work in the same way, condenser capsules register air pressure, ribbons air velocity, and yet we assemble the response of both into the same result and feed the result to loudspeakers.
There is a chicken and egg (not far off a circle of confusion as well) with microphones and speakers. It is hard to deconvolve the level ambience captured (or faked up) in a recording from the manner in which a loudspeaker interacts with the listening room, and thus how a loudspeaker is designed, especially with respect to directivity. Loudspeakers used for mixing are in a way designed and set up for use in a way that is both informed by the expected final listening environment, but during tracking the loudspeakers (often the same loudspeakers, but not always) are being used to directly monitor the result of a microphone's output.
Close mic'ing means a totally different recorded artefact to say an orchestra recorded with a Decca tree, ORTF, crossed pair etc. Yet in the end we send the result to the same speakers in our listening rooms and expect all to sound good, if not realistic. Loudspeakers are designed to work across the range of recording techniques, and those techniques are designed to work well feeding our current designs of loudspeakers. Yet Siegfried Linkwitz spent a lifetime working on an improved speaker/room system that he felt created a better in-room result from those same recordings.
I think it is fair to say that speakers are indeed designed for microphones, but the relationship is, as they say, complicated.
One of the most information dense responses to what at first appeared a rhetorical comment - dang I love this forum.
 

richard12511

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I'm hoping the Trinnov takes care of that - I don't know yet! My plan is to have the 8360/8351 integrate with the 7370 via GLM and treated as 3 single full range speakers and letting GLM handle the time/phase alignments between the 4 units. Then Trinnov will integrate that group with the JTR. Of course this is all in theory. Trinnov suggested I treat these 5 as separates and let Trinnov figure them all out if all else fails. I'm planning to upmix all 2-channel stereo with Auromatic to enjoy the magic of multi-channel immersion

I did something similar with GLM + Dirac and it worked. What Trinnov processor are you using?
 

echopraxia

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"Local speaker designer" uses the same science and measurements visible also here, and almost never listens his designs more than 1-2 hours before production. It's also quite possible that he would not care any of the speakers in top ten of ASP's ranking list. Maybe it's just jelousy or science is still so flexible that we can select and weight own favorite benchmarks :confused:

As long as a design at least avoids the basics of what we scientifically know to be important flaws, I have no problem with using subjective listening to judge the rest of the differences! The science is not entirely comprehensive, but there are a few things it does tell us with high confidence -- like if you don't get some of the fundamentals right, then very little else matters -- and that subjective listening in speaker showrooms alone is quite a dangerously error-prone process. It certainly lead to very mixed results for me, before ASR came into the picture.

As a counter-argument excusing some of my youthful "foolishness", back in the 90's, it was literally impossible to buy speakers without entering a dealer show room to find out more about them - where would you get specs and measurements for Sonus Faber or B&W in 1996? Additionally, the massive majority of reviews were all subjective from the likes of Stereophile and Absolute Sound. And most importantly, even if measurements were to be found somewhere - what the heck did they even mean? Many Gen-Xers growing up in this era are so used to this paradigm that they continue to buy in this manner out of habit. Today is definitely a good time to be an audiophile.
Yeah definitely agreed, ASR is such a revolutionary benefit to the audiophile world. I just am disappointed when the legacy die-hard subjectivist world tries to dismiss the hard work, time, and resources donated by Amir and others here to provide these measurements, when they brush off measurements as irrelevant versus the showroom "method".
 

kimmosto

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99% of audiophiles know 0 about active studio monitors and would never ever consider them for hifi use
There's a psychological barrier , but I'm happy because I feel more special this way :cool:
Plus not all audiophiles even like flat neutral sound, they like tube amps and vinyl.

That is far from truth in our market, but at least one thing seem to be common for both cults: lack of respect to other, though both believe what they like.
 

Pearljam5000

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That is far from truth in our market, but at least one thing seem to be common for both cults: lack of respect to other, though both believe what they like.
Go to any audiophile forum on the internet and ask about Genelec, i promise you 99% of the people there wouldn't understand what the hell you're talking about.
 

kimmosto

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Go to any audiophile forum on the internet and ask about Genelec, i promise you 99% of the people there wouldn't understand what the hell you're talking about.

I said "our market". Local forums are full of Genelec discussion. Slightly exaggerated 99% of all messages are Genelec.
 

MBI

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What? o_O Speakers are not designed for microphones. Usually for human being who's subjective impressions and opinions matter in private use. Measurements are able to provide some gauge or analysis for some individual features to control design process, QC, sound balance adjustments on site, preview hobby with subjective interpretations etc. but personal preferences, priorities, compatibilities and possibilities define what product will be selected. Not for example measurements and points on ASR forum. Sorry, this is or at least should be self-evident :)

What seems self-evident to someone may diverge from evidence. Examples are numerous. That's a general statement, not just a Genelec one.

Higher fidelity equipments that measure well usually avoid messing around with (poorly designed) equipment which may seems like there are audible incompatibilities/compatibilities. Isn't that the whole point of a flat FR on and off axis speaker set, combined with high SINAD electronics with as little distorsion as possible?

And if you think that speakers aren't designed to restitute what microphones have helped to record, do you also claim that speakers are only intended to restitute purely synthetic audio signals (ie. computed)? Perhaps I misunderstand your point.
 

mononoaware

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The iso-pod is probably 40mm of that, and that gets moved to the side when it becomes the bottom. So yes.

Thanks so those measurements include the iso-pod feet.
I keep forgetting about them.

I found more measurements by clicking “open all details” under specs.

Height

433 mm (17 1/16 in)
Height with Iso-Pod
452 mm (17 25/32 in)

So protrudes only 16.5mm each side, I guess from a distance the curved edges can mask that.
 

Frank Dernie

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I guess from a distance the curved edges can mask that.
morten_lindberg_pr_image_1.jpg
 

Sancus

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But it would be nice to know the limits of 8341a combination (can it do 2.5-4 meters in 5-way complimentary mode?) as well as 8351b combination limits (4m+ with complimentary mode?).

I don't think you can use the general SPL specs as both speakers are limited primarily by their output from 20-200hz, as you can see in the 8361A max SPL chart from S&R. Genelec doesn't provide any SPL information above the 100-1000khz average(which is +3dB in this case).

I suspect the 8351B plays at least 5-10dB louder than the 8341A from ~300hz and up. The 3/4" tweeter is also in the 8331A, and while it gets less power, not sure a tweeter is ever using 36W, let alone 150W lol. It hits 3% distortion about 10dB lower than the 8361/8351B tweeter. Not great. Unfortunately there's no similar chart for the 8341A afaik, so comparing the midrange is tough as the additional power probably does help it.

Considering that you only save $2K on a $26K system by going with the 8341A, I don't see much reason for it.
 
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kimmosto

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Isn't that the whole point of a flat FR on and off axis speaker set, combined with high SINAD electronics with as little distorsion as possible?

Basically yes, but not exactly due to differences in interaction with room depending on speaker concept, response variations to different distances etc. so flat is not necessarily the best and always correct in acoustical domain.
But the biggest disappointment for me has been ranking vs. coverage of preview. I don't find data and listening tests which would be adequate for giving points and any impression that some speaker is better than the other. Spinorama, CSD and few THD plots are not enough, and weighting and evaluation of analyses/results is just subjective but without final judge i.e. human ears and brain. Of course authors are free to rank by anything including color and smell.

Perhaps I misunderstand your point.

Sure. That twist was already corrected in post #346. Assumption was that microphone stands for measurement microphone in thread which contains speaker measurements (instead of music recording).

Anyway, I'm leaving so please don't ask anything anymore.
 

richard12511

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Yes looking forward to it, knowing my luck I will turn up and the place will be locked and barred.
I will take my measuring kit and ask to take some photographs, I am chiefly considering their value within a domestic setting.
As am alternative to kii THREE/ BXT or one Beolab 90!

Keith

I think they'd be a good alternative to have with your lineup. Very comparable (price and performance) to the Kii Three/BXT. Not as fancy or advanced as the Beolab 90, but cheaper :).

One thing that's not clear to me after watching that webinar is the crossover. So it looks like it's limited to 150-300Hz? and the complimentary mode is the only one that lets you change the crossover? Is the crossover for the directive modes still limited to 300Hz?

Would be really cool if they had directivity/beamwidth graphs with the crossovers in place.

I
Interestingly at Genelec Official “Audio Solutions”:
- 8341a (horizontal) + W371A is recommended under “Music Production > Mastering
- 8351b (vertical) + W371A is recommended under “Home Application > High-end Listening”.

Thinking about it more, I'm thinking the vertical orientation works best if you're using the complimentary mode(like the did in the webinar), as that's what gives you the most spread out woofers to best simulate "multisub". Actually 8361 might be even better for that mode, as it's top woofer is even higher up in space. 8361 also matches the W371 baffle better in vertical mode.

8351b(horizontal) should be best for those using the directive modes, to achieve the most constant directivity(similar to Kii 3/BXT). Maybe it could work vertically too if those modes aren't limited to 300Hz crossover(but it seems like they are).
 

Bernard 54

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One thing that's not clear to me after watching that webinar is the crossover. So it looks like it's limited to 150-300Hz? and the complimentary mode is the only one that lets you change the crossover? Is the crossover for the directive modes still limited to 300Hz?
[/ CITATION]

May be because of the drop in the curve of the W371A after 300Hz ??
1621371427050.png
 
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