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Genelec 8030C vs Canton Fonum 300 - In room measurements

gvigers

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#42
I'm by no means an expert but I think that you should spend some time working on your room first. You clearly have major interference patterns below 600Hz (as pointed out by sfdoddsy). Can you move the speakers forwards so that they aren't sandwiched between the top and bottom shelves? Can you add a rug to cover the bare wood floor? It might also be worth moving that solid wood table out of the way just as a test.

If all else fails I would recommend moving the Genelec's to your PC (as you said) so that you can enjoy them in the near-field and see what they can really do. You can always sell them on this forum if you still dislike them :)

Good luck!

Guy
 

andreasmaaan

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#43
Ok thanks @Dominik Kißkalt, I see you've now gated the measurements. Although you'd need to take a lot more measurements to really get a fuller picture of the Canton's performance, this does give you enough to work with. It seems that your initial theory was correct. The Canton has an on-axis 5dB boost in the top octave or two. Looks like probably a decent speaker otherwise.

I second @gvigers' suggestion that you look at your room and placement next.
 
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Thread Starter #44
No need to redo the measurements :) You can just manipulate the measurements you've already taken in REW to get the gated responses. Let us know if you can't work it out, I'm sure we can help.
Thanks for the hint. :) I worked it out and updated my post with the spl curves for the gated measurements.
 
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Thread Starter #45
I'm by no means an expert but I think that you should spend some time working on your room first. You clearly have major interference patterns below 600Hz (as pointed out by sfdoddsy). Can you move the speakers forwards so that they aren't sandwiched between the top and bottom shelves? Can you add a rug to cover the bare wood floor? It might also be worth moving that solid wood table out of the way just as a test.

If all else fails I would recommend moving the Genelec's to your PC (as you said) so that you can enjoy them in the near-field and see what they can really do. You can always sell them on this forum if you still dislike them :)

Good luck!

Guy
Yeah the room is not ideal. I planned two actions: Filling the space between my coach and the back wall with mineral wool (~40cm, will help hopefully recognizable with the boomy bass) Putting 5 cm thick absorption material directly behind the speakers to fight the sbir effect somewhere between 200 and 300 Hz.

The minidsp + Dirac will be used to integrate the 2 subs later this week.

I will do measurements without table tomorrow. But the table must stay since I need it there :)

Regarding the sandwiched speakers: would it help to add absorption material on the bottom and top of the shelfes? Or would the material have to be too thick to have an impact on the interference patterns?
 

gvigers

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#48
Yeah the room is not ideal. I planned two actions: Filling the space between my coach and the back wall with mineral wool (~40cm, will help hopefully recognizable with the boomy bass) Putting 5 cm thick absorption material directly behind the speakers to fight the sbir effect somewhere between 200 and 300 Hz.

The minidsp + Dirac will be used to integrate the 2 subs later this week.

I will do measurements without table tomorrow. But the table must stay since I need it there :)

Regarding the sandwiched speakers: would it help to add absorption material on the bottom and top of the shelfes? Or would the material have to be too thick to have an impact on the interference patterns?

Again, I'm not an expert (and I haven't seen your room in person) but FWIW:

1) I don't think you need to worry about the space behind your couch. There will already be a couch (and a person) in the way to attenuate the sound before it reaches that area. Of course hanging a rug (or panels or curtains) on the wall behind you may help.

2) That is a nice table! I don't think that you will hear a difference but it may show up in the measurements. Probably not a big deal.

3) Yes, sound absorbing material on the top and bottom of the alcove might help quite a lot. I have no idea about thickness - I would guess the more the merrier!

4) The "shelf sandwich" effect still worries me (even with sound absorbing materials). Are you sure that you can't move the speakers forwards? Or put them on stands either side of the alcove so that you can move them forward when you want to?

As I understand it, resonances are hard to deal with in software because they vary over space and build up over time. Thus there is no one number that you can use to attenuate them in a filter. So the better job that you can do with your room now, the easier you time you will have integrating the subs and getting Dirac to work later.

Good luck and happy experimenting!
 

ROOSKIE

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#49
@Tangband I did the measurements you proposed. Microphone perfectly on axis with tweeter - only on loudspeaker - 1m away.

Red Curve: Canton
Blue Curve: Genelec

Results:

View attachment 88290

I am still not sure if I get your point. If I want to optimize / compare two loudspeakers in my specific room scenario and listening position I should not measure at the listening position (and not 1 m away from the loudspeaker)? The microphone in the first picture is only 2m away from the speakers. The room is smaller then it seems.
@napilopez @andreasmaaan @thewas_ Thanks for the great input, I really appreciate it! I will read, think, measure and report back this evening (i am in europe).



The goal is to test which loudspeaker is objectively and subjectively more capable at reproducing music closest to the source / recording in my room setup (4.38m x 3.5m; 2m listening distance; 1.8m distance between LS; not symmetric positioning in room).

Subjectively they sound equally good to me - the higher pitch of the Canton can sound better or worse dependent on the material + a taste for this type of sound or the other can be learned (I think like taste for specific foods) + at the end I can always equalize it via the MiniDSP.

Objectively I conducted since the start of this tread multiple measurements: Sweep with both LS at MLP (seems to be of garbage information value ;) ) + Sweep with only one LS at 1 m on axis. Beside the mainly discussed SPL curve the Canton hold up (or was better) in all measurements. The measurements suggested by napilopez will get interesting since the also take the dispersion behavior into consideration. I started the thread since I was so surprised to see the older and cheaper Canton loudspeakers right on with the so well tested Genelec 8030C. I really want the genelecs to win since I bought them not long ago :,D

Are there other quantifiable metrics beside the spl curve which have a considerable impact on how good the loudspeaker will sound? I looked at distortion - for both its at 81 db @ 1m quiet low with a slightly edge towards the canton (I will go louder this evening). Maybe something in the time domain? Impulse Response, Group delay, ... I am asking since these are metrics which can't be corrected by equalizing (well maybe group delay can also be corrected by dirac).
Everything I will say has already been touched on but here goes.

When testing for what you will actually be hearing at your actual listening position - Use the moving mic method. 1 measurement is pointless, gating of any sort is not for discovering what you are hearing in your room (that is for trying to create an approximate/ rude anechoic response in room). Use the RTA feature and take your measurements at about 100 samples using a window larger than where your head will be. (maybe even larger enough for two heads)

Then you can compare this summed response with the PIR predicted in room response. Unless you like a bright sound or have hearing that is a bit different from normal a flat in room will be bright.
From your measurements for the Canton for me that would likely be very bright and I might be unhappy long term - it might sound great short term but that is not what I need - I need to listen for long periods and love it. (You may love it that way)

Start by measuring one speaker at a time L then R. However with the moving mic method you CAN measure both at once to get a summed power response of the system. Some folks find this is more accurate for them then a single speaker. Phase and comb filtering will be factored out with the moving mic method.

Post you results here of the moving method. One for each channel and them a combined two channel RTA sample. It would be nice to see both 1/48th octave and a psychoacoustic smoothed curve.

By the way there is no reason the Genelec's need to win. If you like the Canton's feel free to gift me the Genelec's... Kidding of course but really if they don't float your boat save that $$. You would be surprised at how much cash I have saved by actually keeping what I like vs what is marketed to me or staying clear of pressure to follow the accepted norms.

By the way what I would do is use the Genelec's for a few solid weeks or a month. Then go back to the Canton's since you already know them well. See what if anything has changed in your preferences now that you have a long term exposure and a more equal psychology toward each unit.
 
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napilopez

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#50
Everything I will say has already been touched on but here goes.

When testing for what you will actually be hearing at your actual listening position - Use the moving mic method. 1 measurement is pointless, gating of any sort is not for discovering what you are hearing in your room (that is for trying to create an approximate/ rude anechoic response in room). Use the RTA feature and take your measurements at about 100 samples using a window larger than where your head will be. (maybe even larger enough for two heads)

Then you can compare this summed response with the PIR predicted in room response. Unless you like a bright sound or have hearing that is a bit different from normal a flat in room will be bright.
From your measurements for the Canton for me that would likely be very bright and I might be unhappy long term - it might sound great short term but that is not what I need - I need to listen for long periods and love it. (You may love it that way)

Start by measuring one speaker at a time L then R. However with the moving mic method you CAN measure both at once to get a summed power response of the system. Some folks find this is more accurate for them then a single speaker. Phase and comb filtering will be factored out with the moving mic method.

Post you results here of the moving method. One for each channel and them a combined two channel RTA sample. It would be nice to see both 1/48th octave and a psychoacoustic smoothed curve.

By the way there is no reason the Genelec's need to win. If you like the Canton's feel free to gift me the Genelec's... Kidding of course but really if they don't float your boat save that $$. You would be surprised at how much cash I have saved by actually keeping what I like vs what is marketed to me or staying clear of pressure to follow the accepted norms.

By the way what I would do is use the Genelec's for a few solid weeks or a month. Then go back to the Canton's since you already know them well. See what if anything has changed in your preferences now that you have a long term exposure and a more equal psychology toward each unit.
I'd suggested mmm measurements earlier and he posted mmm measurements here:)

canton vs genelec mmm.jpg


@Dominik Kißkalt when you did these measurements, was your coffee table in its usual spot? I'm wondering that's what I'd causing the bump and dip at 1-2k. Very unusual for a genelec so something is causing a particularly adverse reflection.

It's also notable that the same interference patten seems to show up on the Canton, but less aggressively, which makes me think it is a matter of surface reflections. We're the genelecs placed on top of the Canton for this measurement?

I suspect it is a vertical reflection of some sort. The tricky thing is figuring out how much it's actually adversely affecting the sound.
 
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Thread Starter #51
I'd suggested mmm measurements earlier and he posted mmm measurements here:)

View attachment 88650

@Dominik Kißkalt when you did these measurements, was your coffee table in its usual spot? I'm wondering that's what I'd causing the bump and dip at 1-2k. Very unusual for a genelec so something is causing a particularly adverse reflection.

It's also notable that the same interference patten seems to show up on the Canton, but less aggressively, which makes me think it is a matter of surface reflections. We're the genelecs placed on top of the Canton for this measurement?

I suspect it is a vertical reflection of some sort. The tricky thing is figuring out how much it's actually adversely affecting the sound.
So I measured again and could identify the reason for the 1 kHz dip: Both loudspeakers were standing shoulder to shoulder on a box (to get them both on the same height and the tweeter on ear height). So the genelecs interfered with the Canton. When I removed the Canton the 1 kHz Dip was reduced significantly. But see for yourself:

mmm - comparison genelec positions.jpg


The I made an additional test without the table and compared both constellations:

genelec comparison - table - no table.jpg


So the table is no baddie? :)

Any Idea what cause these horrible dips?
  • 55 Hz -> SBIR ceiling? (1.65 m distance)
  • 100 Hz -> SBIR floor? (0.84 m distance)
  • 170 Hz -> No idea
  • 240 Hz -> SBIR with back wall for sure ;)
  • 300 Hz ? -> No idea
Ev. the interference with the lower and upper shelves? I will test with the loudspeaker shifted to the side later.
 

Tangband

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#52
At first - change the measurements window to 50 dB , thats the standard for measurements.
Right now you have it on 60 dB.
Change the window for frequency measurements to 200 - 20000 Hz . Measuring below that frequency is a complete waste of time in a normal room.
Always measure only one loudspeaker with the other completely turned of. Otherwise you gonna get comb filtering effects in the measurements.

Put one of the loudspeakers on a loudspeaker-stand about 60 cm high in the middle of the room, then measure with the mic with the help of a mic- stand about 1 meter on axis from the loudspeaker, thats about near critical distance in a normal room.
If you use a sine sweep, you must use something called peak-hold .
Everything in a room reflects the sound you are measuring.

You have Amirms reference measurements of 8030c . Compair it with your own measurements. When you measure the loudspeaker in the right way, you will find that the results will be the same as Amirms, or very similar.
 
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Tangband

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#53
So I measured again and could identify the reason for the 1 kHz dip: Both loudspeakers were standing shoulder to shoulder on a box (to get them both on the same height and the tweeter on ear height). So the genelecs interfered with the Canton. When I removed the Canton the 1 kHz Dip was reduced significantly. But see for yourself:

View attachment 88670

The I made an additional test without the table and compared both constellations:

View attachment 88671

So the table is no baddie? :)

Any Idea what cause these horrible dips?
  • 55 Hz -> SBIR ceiling? (1.65 m distance)
  • 100 Hz -> SBIR floor? (0.84 m distance)
  • 170 Hz -> No idea
  • 240 Hz -> SBIR with back wall for sure ;)
  • 300 Hz ? -> No idea
Ev. the interference with the lower and upper shelves? I will test with the loudspeaker shifted to the side later.
Try to learn about wave-lengths in sound. The sound travels 343 meter/sec in room temperature. Thats about 34 cm in 1 ms.
Thats a wavelength of 1 kHz . Now you are starting to understand why near objekts are going to interfere with your measurements, and at what frequency. You need a thick rug on the floor to avoid the nearby reflections from the floor.
 
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Thread Starter #54
At first - change the measurements window to 50 dB , thats the standard for measurements.
Right now you have it on 60 dB.

Put one of the loudspeakers on a loadspeakerstand about 60 cm high in the middle of the room, then measure with the mic with the help of a mic- stand about 1 meter from the loudspeaker, thats about near critical distance in a normal room.
If you use a sine sweep, you must use something called peak-hold .
Everything in a room reflects the sound you are measuring.

You have Amirms reference measurements of 8030c . Compair it with your own measurements. When you measure the loudspeaker in the right way, you will find that the results will be the same as Amirms, or very similar.
I have already done gated measurements in the middle of the room here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...in-room-measurements.16826/page-2#post-545115

Results were that now the Genelecs are much nearer to Armims measurements. Also the distortion was better this time with the genelecs in comparison to the cantons.

It is not my goal to reproduce the results of Armim. I just try the the quantify their behavior in my specific room. Since we could already see a different kind of dispersion behavior they seem to interact differently with the specific room and placement scenario.

What do mean with measurement window? Do you mean the Y - Axis Limit or the target level in db or something else?
 

YSC

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#56
So I measured again and could identify the reason for the 1 kHz dip: Both loudspeakers were standing shoulder to shoulder on a box (to get them both on the same height and the tweeter on ear height). So the genelecs interfered with the Canton. When I removed the Canton the 1 kHz Dip was reduced significantly. But see for yourself:

View attachment 88670

The I made an additional test without the table and compared both constellations:

View attachment 88671

So the table is no baddie? :)

Any Idea what cause these horrible dips?
  • 55 Hz -> SBIR ceiling? (1.65 m distance)
  • 100 Hz -> SBIR floor? (0.84 m distance)
  • 170 Hz -> No idea
  • 240 Hz -> SBIR with back wall for sure ;)
  • 300 Hz ? -> No idea
Ev. the interference with the lower and upper shelves? I will test with the loudspeaker shifted to the side later.
One question on this, when your 8030Cs placed 5cm to the rear wall, it seems to have no extra bass boost? or did you use the -4db dip switch as genelec suggested?
 
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Thread Starter #57
One question on this, when your 8030Cs placed 5cm to the rear wall, it seems to have no extra bass boost? or did you use the -4db dip switch as genelec suggested?
No, all switches were on default. Room correction or equalizing was also disabled.
If you look closely in my first graph of this thread the bass is boosted by 3-4 db in the 5 cm position in comparison to the 20 cm position.
 

YSC

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#58
No, all switches were on default. Room correction or equalizing was also disabled.
If you look closely in my first graph of this thread the bass is boosted by 3-4 db in the 5 cm position in comparison to the 20 cm position.
ic, so the genelec recommendation of -4dB and used at distance of 5cm from wall makes sense!
 

YSC

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#59
No, all switches were on default. Room correction or equalizing was also disabled.
If you look closely in my first graph of this thread the bass is boosted by 3-4 db in the 5 cm position in comparison to the 20 cm position.
Just saying, ended up how do you place the 8030Cs and with dip switches?
 

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