Ending the Windows Audio Quality Debate

[dasdoing]

It's insane. I just did the trick with uninstalling the original APOs and the difference was one of the biggest I ever head. This probably was the final barrier to maximum audible transparency. Now even in complex and/or loud parts I usually found annoying everything is just ... sorted out and transparent. It actually makes my shake head how easy it was this whole time and how much of in impact it has. This is impact is far beyond all those tiny annoyances I might have with DAC roll off filters and the like. This should be a mayor PSA sticky for all Windows users.

Makes me think if I could have shortened my audio equipment voyage just by applying this trick beforehand. Then again, this thread only exists for two years.

you had something in the chain you weren't aware of.

 

[edechamps]

I just did the trick with uninstalling the original APOs and the difference was one of the biggest I ever head.

What kind of hardware and driver are you using? Just removing APOs should not make that much difference unless the manufacturer screwed up and bundled in questionable APOs in their driver package.

 

[anphex]

What kind of hardware and driver are you using? Just removing APOs should not make that much difference unless the manufacturer screwed up and bundled in questionable APOs in their driver package.

HDMI to my Denon receiver. So basically the Nvidia Audio Driver, I guess?

 

[Offler]

HDMI to my Denon receiver. So basically the Nvidia Audio Driver, I guess?

Those are usually quite generic based on "High definition audio controller" driver. But if you find in your device manager things like "Audio effects component" and there is a dozen of them, then its usually part of the problem.

These are bundled to sound drivers to process the sound through audio control panel application. All of these are software based, and licensed from companies like Creative.

 

[Eulipian]

What About Analog?
I also want to address how to make this all work for you analog junkies. I own a pile of vinyl and a nice table so had to solve this for myself. I use a low cost external USB A/D tested in loopback showing >100 dB SNR, which blows away the performance of any RIAA preamplifier in front of it. I plumb that into the PC and through EAPO get all the same benefits of room and headphone equalization from vinyl. Getting this right ensures not clipping the A/D. I've created a separate spreadsheet to achieve this, but its beyond the scope here.

@DDF Which device? Would you kindly post the spreadsheet referred to?

Thanks.

 

[eddy555]

does all of this hold true for win11 latest build as well?

 

[pablolie]

My many year experience with Win10 is that you dont need any other drivers for something as basic as a DAC. And if they claim you do... pass.

 

[Offler]

does all of this hold true for win11 latest build as well?

According to my tests on Win11 PRO, it does.

 

[Count Arthur]

I had a look through the thread and the RME manual, but couldn't find an explicit reference to this. Am I correct that the RME MADIface driver circumvents Windows 11 APO?

 

[Sokel]

My many year experience with Win10 is that you dont need any other drivers for something as basic as a DAC. And if they claim you do... pass.

For playback only,maybe,but you need the ASIO drivers for other stuff,measuring for example.
You can't rely on windows moods for that.

 

[digitalfrost]

I had a look through the thread and the RME manual, but couldn't find an explicit reference to this. Am I correct that the RME MADIface driver circumvents Windows 11 APO?

These cards and drivers work no different than other products. If you use DirectSound/MME APOs should work like normal. If you use ASIO/WASAPI APOs are ignored.

 

[Eldus]

These cards and drivers work no different than other products. If you use DirectSound/MME APOs should work like normal. If you use ASIO/WASAPI APOs are ignored.

Unless the APO is accessing the audio device with ASIO, like Dirac Live for PC can.

 

[pablolie]

I use Jriver Media player, which seems to directly access the hardware without any drivers required, at least with the 3 external DAC/Loudspeaker devices I have used over the last 15 years - without the need to ever install any drivers. The only extra stiff that sometimes needed to be installed was to perform firmware updates.

 

[Dealux]

Why is the RME built in DSP worse than Equalizer APO?

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Why is the RME built in DSP worse than Equalizer APO?

Not worse in terms of audio quality but it is more limited due to less available processing power / memory.
Hard to compete with the resources of a fully fledged PC in a small standalone device even with custom FPGA. :'D

 

[CedarX]

Not worse in terms of audio quality but it is more limited due to less available processing power / memory.
Hard to compete with the resources of a fully fledged PC in a small standalone device even with custom FPGA. :'D

Does the available processing power matter… if you won’t use it with a fixed number of filters?

 

[Offler]

Does the available processing power matter… if you won’t use it with a fixed number of filters?

Only in certain workloads ... More channels to process, higher bitrate, should it be real-time?

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Does the available processing power matter… if you won’t use it with a fixed number of filters?

Yes, because available processing power limits you in many ways.

One example: limited amount of bands available. The more complex the correction you want to do, the sooner you'll bump your head against that limit.

Another example: limits in regards to what sample rates can be processed via DSP. IIRC, RME states something along these lines in the manual as well but my memory is hazy.
I usually run 96KHz max (not because I "believe" in 96KHz but because I happen to have a bunch of files I'm too lazy to resample. :'D), so I never run into any restrictions.

Ofc the specs are still complete overkill unless you insist on doing 20Hz to 20 KHz room correction or want to apply DSP to extreme sample rates/DSD. For simple stuff like headphone or bass correction, the available bands are more than enough to do the job.

 

[CedarX]

Yes, because available processing power limits you in many ways.

One example: limited amount of bands available. The more complex the correction you want to do, the sooner you'll bump your head against that limit.

Another example: limits in regards to what sample rates can be processed via DSP. IIRC, RME states something along these lines in the manual as well but my memory is hazy.
I usually run 96KHz max (not because I "believe" in 96KHz but because I happen to have a bunch of files I'm too lazy to resample. :'D), so I never run into any restrictions.

Ofc the specs are still complete overkill unless you insist on doing 20Hz to 20 KHz room correction or want to apply DSP to extreme sample rates/DSD. For simple stuff like headphone or bass correction, the available bands are more than enough to do the job.

OK... I was confused by your statement "it is more limited due to less available processing power / memory": whether RME limited their DSP capabilities based upon the available processing power / memory or the other way around--based on what is manageable with RME built-in interface, they limited the DSP features, and then sized what processing power / memory they needed, I'm not sure we'll know, but in the end, RME built-in DSP is not worse than EQ APO... it is just more limited.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I'm not sure we'll know, but in the end, RME built-in DSP is not worse than EQ APO... it is just more limited.

Correct.

The actual stats are complete overkill, so it's audibly transparent.
If you are interested, their manual is really well done and contains a lot of neat background info.

Definitely worth a read!