End Game Speakers - The Quest Continues

[cavedriver]

I dunno, saying they play to 20Hz isn’t technically incorrect but they’re -25db@20Hz…

I had never heard of these speakers before but looking at their website they claim to be quite a bit flatter when their "Gizmo 2" is used. Not really sure how that works, but ok...

Edit: They seem to have some conflicting graphs on the Decware website. The graph below seems to be for the driver with the horn and baffle "wings" and Gizmo, but the graph RobL posted looks much different, and might be the driver without the horn but still with and without the Gizmo, where the orange is with and the blue is without??

 

[kemmler3D]

I had never heard of these speakers before but looking at their website they claim to be quite a bit flatter when their "Gizmo 2" is used. Not really sure how that works, but ok...

Edit: They seem to have some conflicting graphs on the Decware website. The graph below seems to be for the driver with the horn and baffle "wings" and Gizmo, but the graph RobL posted looks much different, and might be the driver without the horn but still with and without the Gizmo, where the orange is with and the blue is without??

I didn't scroll back, but I must have missed something, why is an FR with multiple +/- 10dB FR errors in an endgame thread? That 5dB peak at 420hz alone is disqualifying, let alone the rest of that horror show.

 

[cavedriver]

Also, the path length on the horn is 11 feet, so about 10 mS travel time. What does the group delay look like for this this speaker in the bass region? For it to be so "hard hitting" I would expect under 20 mS, but I have no idea if this is really what "counts" when someone say the bass is fast as that has been a topic of some conversation elsewhere that I haven't felt like I got a clear answer on. Perhaps the punchiness of the bass here has more to do with the decay?

 

[kemmler3D]

Also, the path length on the horn is 11 feet, so about 10 mS travel time. What does the group delay look like for this this speaker in the bass region? For it to be so "hard hitting" I would expect under 20 mS, but I have no idea if this is really what "counts" when someone say the bass is fast as that has been a topic of some conversation elsewhere that I haven't felt like I got a clear answer on. Perhaps the punchiness of the bass here has more to do with the decay?

Fast bass is not a well defined metric, but I'd say for something subjectively "fast" or "tight", you want even bass response, no serious resonances, low group delay as you note (20ms would be pushing it IMO) and also to get lucky with a design that happens to not excite the modes in your room.

To me fast bass requires a fast decay as well as reasonably good phase alignment with the rest of the frequency response.

There's some speculation out there that the shape of the wavefront coming from the speaker has a noticeable perceptual / subjective impact on ... "impact", which is sometimes brought up as a reason for horns being favored, but I don't know of research on this either way.

 

[MKR]

View attachment 350806
What is the meaning of the " delayed internal diffusion"?

Hey PJ … on your diffusion question … Inside the speakers, the compression drivers fire into a 4' long "channel" of diffusion before exiting each horn, creating both delay and diffusion, operating above 2khz. The top horn is highly directional > 2k Selenium H14. Each are EQd/shaped by DSP. The blueprints can be found here https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Recording/acoustics-hearing.htm

 

[cavedriver]

Hey PJ … on your diffusion question … Inside the speakers, the compression drivers fire into a 4' long "channel" of diffusion before exiting each horn, creating both delay and diffusion, operating above 2khz. The top horn is highly directional > 2k Selenium H14. Each are EQd/shaped by DSP. The blueprints can be found here https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Recording/acoustics-hearing.htm

cool presentation. Here's one tidbit that I find very satisfying and perhaps why so many mains+subs solutions suck imho:

 

[Duke]

Hey PJ … on your diffusion question … Inside the speakers, the compression drivers fire into a 4' long "channel" of diffusion before exiting each horn, creating both delay and diffusion, operating above 2khz. The top horn is highly directional > 2k Selenium H14. Each are EQd/shaped by DSP. The blueprints can be found here https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Recording/acoustics-hearing.htm

Thank you for the Linkwitz page link. Very interesting what JJ has to say about diffusion, and in light of his presentation SoundField's design choices seem well-grounded to me.

cool presentation. Here's one tidbit that I find very satisfying and perhaps why so many mains+subs solutions suck imho:
View attachment 351092

@cavedriver, an alternative might be to find a way to take advantage of the ear's ability to detect interaural phase differences down to 40 Hz... which would of course call for using more than one sub.

 

[Jaxjax]

Barefoot MasterStack 12 might be worth looking into. There in Portland Oregon.

 

[MattHooper]

@MKR

Will you be giving us your show report in this thread, or in the other Florida audio show thread?

 

[MKR]

@MKR

Will you be giving us your show report in this thread, or in the other Florida audio show thread?

Hey Matt! Will do it here. Sorry for delay, after the show it was family vacation time. Will post my show impressions by end weekend latest. There were definitely some surprises

 

[Flexecutioner]

Nearly 8 months since the last thread was closed and there's still no practical feedback in 15 pages worth of comments here. It's a lot of rehashing old recommendations and dangling info about "upcoming" D&D speakers over other forum users. This is neither subjective nor objective, it's just rambling.

 

[kemmler3D]

This is neither subjective nor objective, it's just rambling.

In >2 years of posting you haven't noticed that describes 80% of the discussions here?

 

[MKR]

Nearly 8 months since the last thread was closed and there's still no practical feedback in 15 pages worth of comments here. It's a lot of rehashing old recommendations and dangling info about "upcoming" D&D speakers over other forum users. This is neither subjective nor objective, it's just rambling.

Thank you for your feedback

 

[prestigetone]

Nearly 8 months since the last thread was closed and there's still no practical feedback in 15 pages worth of comments here. It's a lot of rehashing old recommendations and dangling info about "upcoming" D&D speakers over other forum users. This is neither subjective nor objective, it's just rambling.

You’re not wrong

In >2 years of posting you haven't noticed that describes 80% of the discussions here?

I’m as indecisive as they come and I’ve purchased a few sets of speakers in that time. This is not an objective search. It’s a meandering audiophilic quest.

 

[MKR]

You’re not wrong

I’m as indecisive as they come and I’ve purchased a few sets of speakers in that time. This is not an objective search. It’s a meandering audiophilic quest.

Thank you for your feedback

 

[Laserjock]

No one is making anyone follow any of these threads or any other thing going on here.

I enjoy following the search and learn a few things along the way.

 

[MKR]

Barefoot MasterStack 12 might be worth looking into. There in Portland Oregon.

Thanks! Will take a look

 

[kma100]

No one is making anyone follow any of these threads or any other thing going on here.

I enjoy following the search and learn a few things along the way.

Agree. It’s a fun journey and some of us really enjoy it!

 

[Pearljam5000]

If I was you I'd just get 8C or would wait for the new bigger D&D

 

[AudioJester]

Nice of people to offer free psychoanalysis.

Keep going @MKR - enjoying the ride and look forward to the show feedback