Elac Adante AS-61 Speaker Review

[Juhazi]

TAD Micro Evolution One is a high class coaxial compact 3-way, designed by AJ. It has similar size small coaxial mid and is crossed LR4 at 420Hz. Bass reflex with slot ports on sidewalls. Unfortunately Stereophile doesn't publish distortion graphs.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tad-micro-evolution-one-loudspeaker-specifications

Axial response/nearfield of bass

 

[WonderBoy]

cool... 3.5 concentric here vs 5.25 though, ie can x-over lower than 420Hz. Still, quick checked out the bigger TAD's (5.25/6) and looks like xover at 250Hz.

 

[LTig]

1. This touches on a question I've had since Ethan Winer heavily repped the supposedly flat frequency response of studio staple Mackie HR824. I've used these monitors a number of times--a friend has a pair--and while the response seemed reasonably flat, I found the bass hard to figure out. I would use similar adjectives: slow, tubby, indistinct. It uses a passive radiator in the rear pointed outward from what I recall.

I inherited a pair of HR824 (mk1, the first version) from a late colleague. Comparing them to my K&H O300D (without sub) these are my pure subjective opinions:

• HR824 bass goes a little deeper than O300D, but is less defined and a little lower in SPL.
• Soundstage is very diffuse but likeable. Listening to mono recordings is much more fun than with the O300D. The latter's soundstage with mono source is a small strip in the middle between the speakers (as it should be) while somehow the HR824 throws a much bigger soundstage [1]. It's probably a speaker which could find friends under those audiophiles who dislike studio monitors with narrow dispersion.
• Tonality is very similar (neutral).

I'd love to see the spinorama of the HR824 and @BYRTT's graphs!

[1] In fact when I heard them the first time in the living room of my late colleague (very lively room with high ceiling) it took me a few minutes to realize that only one speaker was working - such was the soundstage in this room!

 

[KSTR]

This touches on a question I've had since Ethan Winer heavily repped the supposedly flat frequency response of studio staple Mackie HR824. I've used these monitors a number of times--a friend has a pair--and while the response seemed reasonably flat, I found the bass hard to figure out. I would use similar adjectives: slow, tubby, indistinct. It uses a passive radiator in the rear pointed outward from what I recall.

Is time-frequency delay something the Klippel measurements would reveal? Have to imagine it would be, waterfall or otherwise. Apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere.

Standard measurements have a hard time peeling out "slow, tubby, indistinct" bass.

I've found subtractive techniques can help isolate the "dynamic distortion" of speakers. The idea is you make a precision, low-noise impulse response (IR) measurement, does not not need to be anechoic but the room shall have no severe resonances and notably no "rattling". IR not truncated/windowed, but harmonic "pre-echos" removed/discarded (needs a long sweep time to move the distortion IR way outside the main signal impulse time frame).
Then you play and record a piece of music through the exact same setup (speaker+room+mic), or just use the recorded sweep signal, and compare it to the result of the convolution of the source file with the measured impulse which factors in only the response (mag and phase) of the fundamental at any frequency. This captures any deviation from its own idealized response of the specific speaker at the given operation point (sweep level), the idealized (linear portion of) response is what is shown in all the frequency response plots that we see.

If the speaker were truly disortionless, the difference is a perfect null, within the limits of run-to-run errors. If it has static harmonic distortion only, you will here these distortions isolated (HD and IMD, also Doppler). If it further has dynamic instabilities, those come out on top of that. The simplest dynamic instability is voice coil temperature parameter shifts but there are many more, eg compression/noise from reflex ports on the edge of stability, passive radiators doing their own uncontrolled thing, yet even simple closed boxes or dipoles may show woofer instabilities like dynamic DC offset (we've all seen the cone of a woofer suddenly pulling outward or inward when a low frequency sine is constantly raised in level, and it re-centers at a different, lower level when drive is lowered again... classic "jump-resonance" phenomenon, chaos theories apply here).
Dynamic Distortion Residual is a very brutal and revealing test....

 

[Muelli]

I'd love to see the spinorama of the HR824...

There you go.

 

[Biblob]

There you go.

Pretty good... Except for the bump in directivity and sound power index.

 

[Soniclife]

There you go.

Is it possible for someone to compute preference scores from this? I'm generally against single numbers being used to representing quality, but spins are tricky to interpret for me.

 

[BYRTT]

.....I'd love to see the spinorama of the HR824 and @BYRTT's graphs!.....

Thanks @Muelli for the nice HR824 link, @LTig deal ship one HR824 to ASR and i graph whatever your prefered view is the best as i can, well so far enjoy a fake look alike of the horizontal listening axis ... it was because the two DI curves in Muelli's link reminded me one of the other released reviews i come to think about EQ its on axis to same as HR824 and in its fun stuff what computers can do, original is at the bottom for reference, on axis curve is 100% look alike (catch it on 1500mS animation) for the faking model but expect the real thing differ a bit for the rest.

100mS timeshift above, bit better readable or detailed using 1500mS below:

 

[infinitesymphony]

FWIW, the extent of a delay that is audible is dependent on multiple factors.

Thank you for indulging my question and for providing a great collection of info about the perceptual limits of group delay and phase delay. Very informative!

The FR graphs that have been posted make the HR824's response look flat indeed. It sounds like the general consensus academically and in your own testing is that the reaction time of the passive radiator should be fast enough not to audibly impact the perceived timing of the low frequencies.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Thank you for indulging my question and for providing a great collection of info about the perceptual limits of group delay and phase delay. Very informative!

Glad it helped

It sounds like the general consensus academically and in your own testing is that the reaction time of the passive radiator should be fast enough not to audibly impact the perceived timing of the low frequencies.

I wouldn't quite go that far. I'd say it's conceivable, but not likely. And that, if audible at all, it's unlikely to be the primary cause of what you're hearing.

 

[Rick Sykora]

While not normally a fan of speaker grills, the cutaway of this speaker suggests a design deference towards a high degree of integration (bandpass bass, coaxial MT). This makes me wonder whether some of the FR ugliness is diffraction and whether the grill is integral to the design. @amirm do you have any measurements with the grill on?

 

[amirm]

I do not.

 

[Abe_W]

I have the AF61 and the AS61. There is no dip at 200 Hz. Was a lousy amp used in this test?

 

[richard12511]

I have the AF61 and the AS61. There is no dip at 200 Hz. Was a lousy amp used in this test?

How do you know there is no dip at 200Hz? Might be a hard thing to measure due to rooms still playing a role at that frequency. Amir's equipment allows him to "bypass" the room.

 

[tuga]

I have the AF61 and the AS61. There is no dip at 200 Hz. Was a lousy amp used in this test?

Probably the Behringer A500:

I don't use their amplifier (it is too low power made for driver testing). The one I am using is one that I have reviewed before (Behringer A500): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-behringer-a500-amplifier.5070/

 

[WonderBoy]

Gotta say these are amazing sounding speakers, often plan to sit down for 1/2 hr and ends up 3hrs.

 

[wje]

Gotta say these are amazing sounding speakers, often plan to sit down for 1/2 hr and ends up 3hrs.

From Amir's summary of the review, he didn't give a recommendation either way - whether to buy or avoid. From what I've read, the AS-61 has been discontinued, correct? I was looking at them a few months back as a consideration, but didn't have a place where I could demo them.

 

[Abe_W]

The drooping top active and broad 7K scoop is interesting. I expected this scoop to fill out off axis since Andrew Jones talks has gone on record saying he tends to prioritize off axis response. But it doesn't seem to straighten out until about 40-50 degrees.
It seems coaxial speakers have an uphill battle against the klippel and preference score. In the context of the other coaxials so far, the LS50 looks a lot stronger. Curious to see how newer KEF models like the R3 would hold up to the preference score.

EDIT: Also, very notably, Jones' own super cheap pioneer BS22 beats the Andante in the preference department, even without ignoring LFX. Not by an insignificant margin either 4.0/5.9 to 4.8/7.4 - Ouch.

It seems really hard to believe the pioneer would be better, but the measurements are indeed better, especially in the PIR department. I'd be very curious to see the blind test results between these two speakers with the pioneer in its comfort zone in terms of SPL level. One of these days the forum should organize a blind test with some of the speakers so far that are mismatched in price and build quality. It could be very revealing.

Jebeesus Christ, this is just an awful conclusion to make. I've had the Adante AF61 (floorstanders) and the AS 61 bookshelves for a few months now. I used to have the Pioneer S-1EX (baby tads) for many years. I sold it after i got the Adantes and i can safely say that i have significant familiarity/exposure to the AJ sound with many different genres of music i listen to. I pulled the BS22's out of storage from my basement to have a listen yesterday. I compared them side by side with a Yamaha A-S2100 paired with a topping d90. The BS22 is NOT EVEN REMOTELY in the ballpark of what the Adantes can do. You simply have to come sit in my room and listen to my playlist to get the feel for what i'm talking about here dude.

 

[napilopez]

Jebeesus Christ, this is just an awful conclusion to make. I've had the Adante AF61 (floorstanders) and the AS 61 bookshelves for a few months now. I used to have the Pioneer S-1EX (baby tads) for many years. I sold it after i got the Adantes and i can safely say that i have significant familiarity/exposure to the AJ sound with many different genres of music i listen to. I pulled the BS22's out of storage from my basement to have a listen yesterday. I compared them side by side with a Yamaha A-S2100 paired with a topping d90. The BS22 is NOT EVEN REMOTELY in the ballpark of what the Adantes can do. You simply have to come sit in my room and listen to my playlist to get the feel for what i'm talking about here dude.

I simply made a prediction - not a conclusion - based on the available data. I did say "it seems really hard to believe." I didn't mean to imply it was a certainty the pioneers would win.

Also note I said within the pioneer's "comfort" zone. It seems they can quickly deteriorate with SPL, for instance. I get where you're coming from, but we're here to talk about measurements, right?

I mean, a pair of Infinity bookshelves once beat a pair of revel salons in a blind test organized by Harman itself, according to Andew Robinson, who participated in one. I once enjoyed listening to some mid-range Focals more than their flagship $220,000 grand Utopias back-to-back.

I don't doubt your personal impressions, but that doesn't negate what the measurements tell us. Occasoinally I like a speaker that appears to measure worse than another. There are any of a myriad of reasons that could be the case. It happens, and I'm fine with that.

 

[StevenEleven]

I simply made a prediction - not a conclusion - based on the available data. I did say "it seems really hard to believe." I didn't mean to imply it was a certainty the pioneers would win.

Also note I said within the pioneer's "comfort" zone. It seems they can quickly deteriorate with SPL, for instance. I get where you're coming from, but we're here to talk about measurements, right?

I mean, a pair of Infinity bookshelves once beat a pair of revel salons in a blind test organized by Harman itself, according to Andew Robinson, who participated in one. I once enjoyed listening to some mid-range Focals more than their flagship $220,000 grand Utopias.

I don't doubt your personal impressions, but that doesn't negate what the measurements tell us. Occasoinally I like a speaker that appears to measure worse than another. There are any of a myriad of reasons that could b the case. It happens, and I'm fine with that.

Awesome video, @napilopez. This goes along with what I have wondered (but have not known!) for a very long time. Thus, I’ve been pretty cautious in how much I spend on audio. I honestly don’t know who Andrew Robinson is (probably puts my ignorance and status as a novice in this hobby in a glaring spotlight) but I will have to check it out.