Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Dialectic]

What the eff are you talking about?

A number of us used to be involved with another audio forum (that is now dying) that was owned in part by a gynecologist. He didn't take too kindly to rational inquiry on his forum and ran us off. I won't name the forum.

 

[Emlin]

A number of us used to be involved with another audio forum (that is now dying) that was owned in part by a gynecologist. He didn't take too kindly to rational inquiry on his forum and ran us off. I won't name the forum.

I'm still none the wiser, but I think we should leave it there.

 

[Zuccinho]

Thanks, he's already weighed in in favor of the 8cs. Though I'm still trying to get a sense of how large an upgrade they would or would not be from the Type 20s. The main question I have, which I know is somewhat subjective, is do they represent the same kind of performance leap you'd see going from say, the Adam A7x, to the Adam SV3s (in other words, up a tier within a monitor range). Or is the difference more incremental/a matter of trade-offs? For instance, the high end on the Type 20s is by far the best I've ever heard -- can the 8cs compete with the Type 20's AMT tweeter?

Given the expense, I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can. I've contacted D&D directly and we are in the process of finding out of an in-person audition is possible in my area.

In lieu of that, I'm just trying to mine the personal experiences of those who have heard them here.

I haven’t compared the 8cs to the Type 20s, though I was interested in both. I did however directly compare a pair of Kii 3s to a pair of Neumann KH310s and whilst I was v impressed with the 310s there was no contest (in my room) in terms of quality of the bass and imaging/precision/clarity in particular. So if pushed I would guess there’d be at least a comparably large gap between the 8cs and the type 20s.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Although if you have the speakers firing ‘straight’ no toe in you can increase spaciousness depending upon construction, proximity etc etc
Keith

I think the directivity issue may well depend on the size of the listening room. If you have a smaller listening room, wide dispersion speakers more likely result in adverse room interactions. Even if the D & D doesn't have the widest sound stage, isn't it preferable if it's the most accurate?

And what happens if the two channel system does double duty in a multi channel surround system. If you have surround channels to create "ambiance" in such a direct way, do you really need you Left-right front speakers adding ambiance as well, or does this serve to just muddy up multi channel soundtracks?

Personally, I think it might be the latter.

 

[Robert394]

I haven’t compared the 8cs to the Type 20s, though I was interested in both. I did however directly compare a pair of Kii 3s to a pair of Neumann KH310s and whilst I was v impressed with the 310s there was no contest (in my room) in terms of quality of the bass and imaging/precision/clarity in particular. So if pushed I would guess there’d be at least a comparably large gap between the 8cs and the type 20s.

Very helpful, thank you.

 

[Robert394]

what hedd audio has chosen to do today may be for economic or marketing reasons, but does not solve the problem or rather does not answer the question .

the question and to know if the double or triple conversions according to whether one attacks the dsp in analog or digital can harm the quality of the signal?
it says""

"" in most cases two additional A/D or D/A conversions, sound quality is affected""
are there any measures? tests?

other questions? how does the 8c internal dsp not generate noise on the signal? with everything inside (power supply, etc etc)

again, are there any measures? in the absence of proof doubt is permitted.


fred

Hedd Type 20 owner here.

To me, their DSP approach with the Lineariser software has several advantages and is one reason I purchased these speakers originally. Klaus Heinz, designer/founder of Hedd (and also founder of Adam Audio), explained that they can achieve lower noise via analog. Additionally, having DSP external to the speaker in this way allows you to utilize a 3rd-party Dac, in my case, the ADI2, without another AD/DA conversion in the speaker itself.

The Lineariser provides both frequency and phase alignment.

Personally, I think it's a great idea.

That said, more recently I'm starting to wonder if external Dacs, may be overrated, and really 85-90% of the sound quality variation is due to the speaker, with 10-15% from the Dac and other componentry. For example, I could buy a $30,000 Dac, use $10,000 cables (I know most here don't believe cables make any difference), but my guess is it won't make an Adam A7x sound much more than 10-15% better at best. It certainly won't make it sound like the Type 20s. It's a matter of physics. Better to spend 90% of your budget on the best speakers you can get, which may well be a speaker with an internal Dac, like the 8cs.

One reason I'm interested in comparing them to the Type 20s. I hope Dutch and Dutch get back to me about my request to do so.

 

[pozz]

The main question I have, which I know is somewhat subjective, is do they represent the same kind of performance leap you'd see going from say, the Adam A7x, to the Adam SV3s (in other words, up a tier within a monitor range).

I went from the older A7 (no X) to the S2V. The main thing that struck me was that the sound was very similar. They did a bunch of things better, but there was no wow.

 

[Robert394]

Hmm, I was contemplating the S2V as the upgrade from my A7X. I'm very glad then I went with the Type 20s (3-way speaker for one thing). They were definitely a "wow" difference between the Adams (obvious subjective, but a significant leap IMO).

The way I described it when I first upgraded was that with the A7Xs, I was listening to a song (albeit at a very high quality level). With the Type 20s, I was having an experience.

 

[benje]

Hi guys,

I've been following this (and many other 8c threads) with interest. I'm close to pulling the trigger soon, but want to understand a couple of things.

I'm currently running a 2.2 system that's mostly used for music, but I also use the optical out from the TV into my pre-amp for movies. I'm wanting to have my cake and eat it by using Roon with the 8c's as the endpoint for music, but then using the XLR inputs for movies from a separate AV processor, which could then allow me to use it in a surround setup without compromising on stereo audio quality.

I think with the upcoming firmware release with Roon (if it ever comes out!), I'll be able to achieve this, but I'm not clear how you switch between inputs? Is it just using the lanspeaker interface?

Also I'm not clear on whether the 'thru' or 'sub' connections even work at the moment? I know the 8c's are basically full range, but just wanting to understand all my options for hooking up my subs.

Finally, the AV setup I'd have would likely employ some kind of room correction; can anyone see any issues with having the 8c's having correction done in-speaker for stereo listening, but then potentially having additional correction stacked on top from the AV processor?

Cheers!

 

[Thomas savage]

View attachment 63318
https://www.similarweb.com/website/whatsbestforum.com?competitors=audiosciencereview.com

Never gets old.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Yes, we have a number of those here. Another poster baselessly alleged that it was an audiophile scam.

Would love to get the Baach into Amir's lab. I'm interested in seeing what the unit actually does, and whether it enhances realism or is merely a sound effect. An arm's length, objective evaluation complete with measurements will go a long way toward satisfying everyone's curiouity.

Also, don't know why it's price so stratosphericly high. It really a piece of software. If it's so revolutionary, I don't know why it isn't priced for greater market penetration. The best way for them to recoup their development costs is by pricing it so that it's within the range of affordability for many more audiophiles. Ultimately, if it's as good as they maintain, that's the way for them to make the most money.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I'm still none the wiser, but I think we should leave it there.

If it's who I think it is, he put all the "objectivists" in a ghetto.

 

[Frank Dernie]

it won't make an Adam A7x sound much more than 10-15% better at best.

<1% at best, 0% almost certainly, based on my own experience of level matched comparisons of DACs and cables over a huge price range.
After 30 years of spending many £10s of thousands this was a worthwhile self test...
The speakers and room (and particularly where the speakers are in the room) definitely make the most difference and DACs and cables (as long as properly engineered for purpose) none whatsoever.

 

[q3cpma]

Hmm, I was contemplating the S2V as the upgrade from my A7X. I'm very glad then I went with the Type 20s (3-way speaker for one thing). They were definitely a "wow" difference between the Adams (obvious subjective, but a significant leap IMO).

The way I described it when I first upgraded was that with the A7Xs, I was listening to a song (albeit at a very high quality level). With the Type 20s, I was having an experience.

You have to be aware that the Type 20 probably measures worse than the A7X with a sub, because this compact layout is known for sacrificing horizontal directivity.

 

[Robert394]

You have to be aware that the Type 20 probably measures worse than the A7X with a sub, because this compact layout is known for sacrificing horizontal directivity.

I'm using the Type 20s with the Adam Sub8 also (I would recommend adding a sub for the Type 20s).

Measurements aside, it would take anyone about 5 seconds to hear a large difference between the Type 20s and A7X and I can't imagine many thinking the A7X was superior regardless of application.

A subjective way I thought about it was it was like the Type 20s were a much more powerful magnifying glass into the recording. You feel more "zoomed in," in that not only can you hear more detail, but the soundstage is larger also.

 

[q3cpma]

I'm using the Type 20s with the Adam Sub8 also (I would recommend adding a sub for the Type 20s).

Measurements aside, it would take anyone about 5 seconds to hear a large difference between the Type 20s and A7X and I can't imagine many thinking the A7X was superior regardless of application.

A subjective way I thought about it was it was like the Type 20s were a much more powerful magnifying glass into the recording. You feel more "zoomed in," in that not only can you hear more detail, but the soundstage is larger also.

Well, this directivity difference would only show off-axis or in the distance, so it's not dramatic, depending on the listening position.

 

[Robert394]

Rob the 8Cs are amongst the finest loudspeakers I have heard at any price, I have never really placed much weight in soundstage but thee 8Cs imaging is exceptional partly because you can adjust each speaker’s output for exact match.
The 8Cs just just allow you to hear more, just greater resolution, cardioid, constant directivity , perfect step, phase coherent bass is superb partly because you can adjust the response with the built in EQ.
you must try and hear them, only then can you really decide if they are worth the extra.
Let me know if I can help getting a pair to you to try.
Keith

Keith, I'm still waiting for a reply from D&D about getting a demo pair to listen.

In lieu of that, when you get a chance, would you mind telling me a bit more in subjective listening terms how you would compare the 8cs to the Type 20s?

-For example, which produces a "bigger" sound, in the sense of a complete, immersive soundstage, getting you closer to the feeling of actually being present at the original recording or performance?

-Does the 8c exceed the Type 20s in clarity and resolution across the entire frequency spectrum, and if so, by how much? Are we talking, "I can hear a lot of stuff I didn't before," or more like "ah, I can hear some subtle details of the recording the Type 20s didn't resolve."

-Which would be better for a home theater application?

-What about the notion that with the 8cs, I'd be going from a 4-way setup (3-way Type 20 + sub) to a 3-way setup... is something being lost by essentially getting a 2-way speaker with subs on the back?

Thanks, my curiosity level is pretty high here and it's frustrating to not be able to hear them in person.

 

[frangle]

Good to hear I’m not the only one having the problem.

I had a response from D&D and it appears that this was a problem in lanspeaker that is now fixed. I can confirm that I can now enter all digits in the filter fields.

 

[onion]

Yes, you can send a separate stereo AES signal to each 8C and select the right or left channel for each speaker from the 8Cs' app.

How do you connect your Mac mini to the 8cs? I'm thinking of getting these and using them with BACCH

 

[murl]

Does anyone know if the 8Cs put out a full range signal with the subwoofer output right now?