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I auditioned Dutch & Dutch 8c, and I have more questions now than before

kma100 said:
They are doing a lot of things right.
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As a 8c owner, I am strongly biased, but the way Dutch&Dutch has been backing up the product and how they are interacting with the user community is nothing short of extraordinary.

On Martinjs recommendation, I added a small cheap yamaha streamer for third party connectivity, lyrion, volume knob, wifi and multiroom. Works very well. Will probably replace this with a Wiim Ultra just to get HDMI ARC.

I think it speaks volumes that the company isn't shaming anybody for using a cheap streamer but actually recommending it. There is no audiopholery and snobbishness going on. Zero snakeoil, only physics in the marketing. This is a company in the spirit of ASR.

The problem with this approach is that most people that are willing to pay so much money for a speaker are old men with hearing aids and strong opinions. I am happy that companies like D&D are not tempted to use typical audiophile marketing.

I hate that I probably have become a fanboy, but I am a happy listener.
 
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Thanks, everyone, for contributing to this thread. I am still trying to understand the signal chain for my use case.

Is it possible to: (1) stream Tidal Connect direct to the 8c using just a mobile device and LAN connection; (2) connect an analog source with volume control via XLR inputs; (3) control the streaming volume via Ascend app; and, (4) switch 8c input - LAN or XLR - via Ascend?

If the answer to any of the above is “no” then it would be helpful for me to understand what I’m missing (e.g., Do I need a dedicated network player to stream Tidal Connect? Or, does the 8c/Ascend combo not allow digital/analog input selection?)

Many thanks!
 
At the moment only Roon and Spotify connect can be streamed directly ( just a device and the speakers LAN connection) although I believe Martijn mentioned just recently that they were working with other sources.
Ascend does everything, volume attenuation and input selection.
Roon/Spotify goes into the rj45 connectors, analogue source into the XLRs which have been set to ‘analogue’ via the app or rear of the speaker.
Keith
 
In an iEar interview Martijn said they are working on TIDAL and Qobuz. Would to be released this year according to that interview, but my guess would be next year. They probably want that ready for the 6c release I guess.
 
Didn’t he also recently state that ‘sub out’ firmware would be implemented by next year?
Keith
 
It was this post. I don't know how to link to a post soz...

Martijn Mensink said:
Yeah, I hear you. Who wouldn’t want a lower price? That said, the 8c is expensive to produce. When you consider what you’re getting, it’s a fair price. In fact, many of our hi-fi customers switched to the 8c from much more expensive and complex setups. Surprisingly, not only did they simplify their systems, but in most cases, they also noticed an improvement in sound quality. Therefore, depending on your perspective, you could even argue it offers great value for money.



Latency isn't an issue here. In low-latency mode, it's around 3 milliseconds, about the same time it takes sound to travel one meter through air. In linear-phase mode, it's about 30 ms, but that's expected if you want 4th order crossovers and flat phase response. The crossover filters cause some frequencies to be delayed relative to others. The phase-linearization filter simply delays all frequencies equally, so they align perfectly in time.

The internal DSP computation time is negligible. Most of the 3 ms delay comes from the ADC and DAC.




I get where this "beef" is coming from. The 8c does have a subwoofer output, but the setup interface still isn’t developed yet, as other features have taken priority. That said, I’m curious: what other speakers are you comparing it to that do offer a fully configurable subwoofer output? There are very few out there, if any.

Alright, you’ve heard it here first: this particular issue will be resolved in 2025.



Sounds like we need to clear up the fog. What is unclear about it? Perhaps I can help lift the haze.



I agree in principle. I’ve done plenty of ABX blind tests comparing Spotify's 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis to lossless. When focusing on specific half-second audio fragments, I could reliably tell the difference after some practice. But during normal listening, the difference is imperceptible to me.
Click to expand...
 
restorer-john said:
Made me laugh Frank. Embrace your grumpiness.
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Grumpier Old Men - a movie based on the true future story of Frank Dernie and Restorer John.

IMG_2348.jpeg
 
Is that the new 6C PJ, Martijn has certainly changed design direction
 
Frank Dernie said:
IMO if the product is good when you buy it updates are not necessary and may even be functional downgrades if you have an unusual way of using a product.
I understand 'phone vendors keep slowing theri phones to make a new one attractive, even when the one the customer has can do everything they need, and computer makers do the same but with speakers I see no need for updates, so service and availability of spares is more at issue.

My problem with most modern music systems is lack of a rotary volume control, preferably on the remote control, which rather rules out computer based audio ;)
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I might even like a remote control if it had a rotary volume control. But, until something does have that, I will for sure stick with my Apt/Holman PreAmps, I don't stream, I don't have a TV (not since 2007) & don't need to change the volume very often, anyway.
I do get up to change formats (or flip albums, which I have usually put on high quality cassette [yep, I still play those] or burned to a CD), so that I can listen all the way through.
As to hearing the high end, these days 15KHz is about my limit, so...
 
EJ3 said:
I might even like a remote control if it had a rotary volume control. But, until something does have that, I will for sure stick with my Apt/Holman PreAmps, I don't stream, I don't have a TV (not since 2007) & don't need to change the volume very often, anyway.
I do get up to change formats (or flip albums, which I have usually put on high quality cassette [yep, I still play those] or burned to a CD), so that I can listen all the way through.
As to hearing the high end, these days 15KHz is about my limit, so...
Click to expand...
There was a Quad preamp which had a rotary volume control on the remote and so do the Devialet amplifiers I use.
I mainly listen to CD but do have LP, tuner and reel to reel tape too. My cassette deck is in storage I should sell it!
I haven't done a proper test recently but it seems a tone needs to be pretty loud for me to hear over 7kHz these days.
 
Frank Dernie said:
Had to look that up, never heard of it. Don't think it was ever imported here.
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Designed by Tomlinson Holman, the inventor of 5.1 and all later surround formats, the Chief Engineer on the ADVENT 300 Receiver. You should Wiki him, a very interesting history in both audio & cinema audio, a former Microsoft employee, a former Professor and more.
My pair have these upgrades:
(By Peter Williams of Quirk Audio [and a former Abbey Road Recording engineer,
Australian sound engineer, worked on the London production of the stage show Evita and subsequently at numerous London studios from 1979 through to 1986.
Went on to found an equipment supply and renovation company, Quirk Audio, in Silicon Valley, CA, USA.]):
APT made both pre-amps and power amps designed by Tom Holman (of THX fame). They are both interesting from the perspective of their design and sound quality.
I have undertaken upgrades on a number of APT pre-amps, and use one in my reference “Lab” system. They have a great phono stage and are both warm and detailed. The pre amp was designed around a number of op amp IC’s, originally the TL072, with each op amp forming a “block” of functionality in the pre-amp. As with many components of this vintage, they do benefit from replacing the electrolytic capacitors and other components. My upgrades include:
  • New power supply capacitors of higher capacity
  • replacement of all electrolytic capacitors with new audio quality Nichicon (including bipolar and additional capacitance at appropriate circuit points) and Wima film types.
  • New IC’s through out all in sockets (including the regulator IC’s)
  • New higher capacity bridge rectifier
  • Replacement of the relay
all of which greatly enhances the sonic performance and reduces noise and distortion significantly.
I have supplied a number of these, often used with the upgraded NAD 2200’s described elsewhere, which has results in great sounding combination.
The front and rear panels of the APT preamp

The renowned phono section showing the capacitive and resistive termination options for MM cartridges. The infrasonic filter switch is also visible
Amirm review of one of mine:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/apt-holman-preamplifier-review-
Ken Rockwell's review of an unmodified one:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/apt/holman-preamplifier.htm
I also use the afore mentioned NAD 2200's (also resto-modded by Peter [this is a combination of equipment that I have been using for 40 years, so before I ever heard about Peter around 10 years ago])
One of my 2200's tested by Amirm:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nad-2200-vintage-amplifier-rev
 
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Martijn Mensink said:
I get where this "beef" is coming from. The 8c does have a subwoofer output, but the setup interface still isn’t developed yet, as other features have taken priority. That said, I’m curious: what other speakers are you comparing it to that do offer a fully configurable subwoofer output? There are very few out there, if any.

Alright, you’ve heard it here first: this particular issue will be resolved in 2025.
Click to expand...

@Martijn Mensink

I am an 8c owner and have moved my speakers into a very large room where I am maxxing out the subs with EDM at higher volumes. I don't see this as a failure of the 8c's, the room is just very large. I'm now very interested in adding a sub or two to augment the bass. Is the subwoofer output issue still on track for resolution in 2025 and do you happen to have a D&D subwoofer in the pipeline? I'd much rather stick with all D&D hardware if possible. Thank you.
 
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cEbNVDyfMy said:
@Martijn Mensink

I am an 8c owner and have moved my speakers into a very large room where I am maxxing out the subs with EDM at higher volumes. I don't see this as a failure of the 8c's, the room is just very large. I'm now very interested in adding a sub or two to augment the bass. Is the subwoofer output issue still on track for resolution in 2025 and do you happen to have a D&D subwoofer in the pipeline? I'd much rather stick with all D&D hardware if possible. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Hi cEbNVDyfMy (did I get that right? :p),

Yes, the subwoofer-output configuration is still on track for release this year and is currently in beta testing. We don’t have plans for an 8c subwoofer at this time.

Best regards,

Martijn

​

 
Martijn Mensink said:
Hi cEbNVDyfMy (did I get that right? :p),

Yes, the subwoofer-output configuration is still on track for release this year and is currently in beta testing. We don’t have plans for an 8c subwoofer at this time.

Best regards,

Martijn

​

Click to expand...


This is great news as I will be moving mine to a larger room as well.

I also wanted to say the company has been great in taking care of me in my ~6 years of ownership. I've had one small LED problem that required replacing the LEDs and it was completely taken care of. Also it is impressive that Martijn still personally responds to emails. I have a small company and it is challenging for me to do. I can't imagine the time commitment for him. Overall I'm still a very happy owner six years later.
 
Martijn Mensink said:
Hi cEbNVDyfMy (did I get that right? :p),

Yes, the subwoofer-output configuration is still on track for release this year and is currently in beta testing. We don’t have plans for an 8c subwoofer at this time.

Best regards,

Martijn

​

Click to expand...
Martijn
@Martijn Mensink

That’s great. Will the upcoming subwoofer configuration allow for a crossover between the 8c and connected subwoofers? Or is the plan to just enable low pass plus EQ on the subwoofer output?
 
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