Do we crave distortion?

[pseudoid]

I agree but this a damning predicament for the 'music lover'.

Those "enhancements" are best left to the artists and production team...

I'd really prefer not to conflate with a different kind of an example, but I must; since it is a simpler way to get my message across.
You go to a shelter and adopt a 1 year old pet. You have no idea how this pet was raised in the critical first year of life.
Yes, when you do bring the cutesie home, you finally realize that every time you raise your arm to scratch your head, your newly adopted pet goes and hides under the couch.
Similar to you purchasing a recorded music (no matter the type of media; as was the case w/the 'adopted pet'); you really do not know its provenance.

...They're the ones that are supposed to be creating the music.

You (me? any music listener?) have zero clue: Isn't it at this stage -- just before speakers start doing their work -- that you realize that you have become part of that 'production team that is creating the music'?

Strictly, in the context of 2 channel/stereo music production/delivery; as other forms (multi-channel and/or headphones) make this damning predicament much more complex.

 

[pseudoid]

"Do we crave distortion?"
Every time I take a drink.

I would like to nominate you to start a thread on that exact topic.

Just for giggles, and as a non-drinker, I asked for:
"Effects of alcohol consumption on human hearing."

Certainly! Alcohol can indeed impact hearing. Here are some key points:
Auditory Hair Cells:
Alcohol damages the tiny hair cells in the inner ear responsible for translating external sounds into nerve impulses.
These hair cells are crucial for hearing, and alcohol use can prevent them from properly regrowing or repairing themselves.
Auditory Cortex Shrinkage:
The auditory cortex in the brain processes and interprets sounds.
Chronic alcohol consumption reduces blood flow to the brain, causing the auditory cortex to shrink.
When this happens, the brain may struggle to process sounds even if the ears pick them up1.
Temporary “Cocktail Deafness”:
After drinking, some people experience a form of temporary hearing damage known as “cocktail deafness.”
This phenomenon makes loud noises more tolerable but clears up a few hours after alcohol consumption.
Tinnitus and Balance Issues:
Alcohol changes the volume and composition of fluid in the inner ear, leading to dizziness, imbalance, and hearing loss.?Both hearing and balance are located within the inner ear.

"Excuse me, Bartender! Would you please change my order to 10% distortion instead of 10% alcohol?"

 

[Andysu]

I would like to nominate you to start a thread on that exact topic.

Just for giggles, and as a non-drinker, I asked for:
"Effects of alcohol consumption on human hearing."

"Excuse me, Bartender! Would you please change my order to 10% distortion instead of 10% alcohol?"

i can't drink baileys anymore i'm on medication

however class d

 

[pseudoid]

i can't drink baileys anymore i'm on medication

Abstaining from drinking Baileys does not mean you have to stop the consumption of Baileys.

 

[Andysu]

Abstaining from drinking Baileys does not mean you have to stop the consumption of Baileys.

i look at the bottle in the fridge and the unopened on the counter but i can't drink it

 

[Rja4000]

Harmonics are like salt and pepper in audio.
You need some, but not too much.

Instruments are generating a lot of harmonics.
Some renowned microphone preamps add some as well.

In my opinion, being able to add some harmonics "to taste" is the best solution.

Buy a perfectly transparent system, add some plugin, as you do, and you'll be able to mimic (and best) any of those fancy "high end" systems for a fraction of their price.
And in a much more flexible/sensible way.

And the rest of the time, you'll have a better sounding system

By the way, I've just seen this

Cranborne Audio Carnaby HE2

“We had always planned for Carnaby HE2 to be more than just two Carnaby 500s in a box,” say Cranborne. But how much more?

www.soundonsound.com

Some demo

 

[Rja4000]

And another one here:

https://kmraudio.com/products/tk-audio-the-transformer

 

[Jaxjax]

Has anyone for kicks tried to emulate a 300B SET or PP for that matter. I've had em & the ones I had made everything sound good...which was the problem. Should be able to get it exact should we not.? Not that I'm into it anymore as I'm active but seems it could save a sh.. ton of money for some that are into 300B etc.. I had to keep a quad of em alive when I ran PP300B & was stupid expensive.

 

[levimax]

Has anyone for kicks tried to emulate a 300B SET or PP for that matter. I've had em & the ones I had made everything sound good...which was the problem. Should be able to get it exact should we not.? Not that I'm into it anymore as I'm active but seems it could save a sh.. ton of money for some that are into 300B etc.. I had to keep a quad of em alive when I ran PP300B & was stupid expensive.

300B SET is easy. Put a 5 ohm resistor on the speaker output of a SS amp to simulate the internal resistance of a 300B SET and you will get all the FR variations your speakers would produce with a real 300B SET which are far and away the most audible difference. The audibility of distortion with music playing is grossly overestimated while FR variations are relatively easy to hear.

 

[Jaxjax]

300B SET is easy. Put a 5 ohm resistor on the speaker output of a SS amp to simulate the internal resistance of a 300B SET and you will get all the FR variations your speakers would produce with a real 300B SET which are far and away the most audible difference. The audibility of distortion with music playing is grossly overestimated while FR variations are relatively easy to hear.

I'll just take your word for it as there is no way I'm sticking a 5ohm resistor on my Pascal's or any other amp here.

 

[Chr1]

Personally I do not believe that simply simulating the resistance of a valve amplifier is enough to replicate the sound of one. For a science based forum there's a hell of a lot of this:
"Just do it with EQ... or a resistor".
"It's just the impedance".
I doubt it very much. Way too simplistic if you ask me.
My 2c

 

[levimax]

I'll just take your word for it as there is no way I'm sticking a 5ohm resistor on my Pascal's or any other amp here.

I am talking about putting a 5 ohm 10 watt resistor in series with one of the speaker wires on each channel. The higher resistance your amp would see is "easier" on the amp. The only possible problem would be if you used a really small resistor that got hot and burned up and damaged something.

 

[Doodski]

I am talking about putting a 5 ohm 10 watt resistor in series with one of the speaker wires on each channel. The higher resistance your amp would see is "easier" on the amp. The only possible problem would be if you used a really small resistor that got hot and burned up and damaged something.

Dependent on the resistor type the voltage divider between the amp, R and speaker would vary. So to add any load resister might not be sufficient to effect a frequency response variation mimicking a tube amp.

 

[levimax]

Personally I do not believe that simply simulating the resistance of a valve amplifier is enough to replicate the sound of one. For a science based forum there's a hell of a lot of this:
"Just do it with EQ... or a resistor".
"It's just the impedance".
I doubt it very much. Way too simplistic if you ask me.
My 2c

See below response of a Sonus Faber Concerto Speaker with a Valve Amp (Dynaco ST 70) with about 0.7 ohm of internal resistance, a Neurochrome MOD 86 Amp with almost no internal resistance, and the Nuerochrome MOD 86 with a 0.9 Ohm resistor in series with the speakers. You can see the FR variation between the valve amp and the SS amp and you can also see it "disappear" when adding the resistor. For a 300B SET rather than 0.7 ohm it is more like 5 ohms internal resistance so this effect would be greatly exaggerated.

Regarding "too simplistic", in double blind ABX level matched testing I could not tell the Valve Amp from the near SOTA SS amp so my real conclusion is "Tube Sound" is a myth. Nonetheless the increased internal impedance FR effect was clearly measurable and I don't doubt that under some circumstance and for some people it is audible.

 

[MattHooper]

Regarding "too simplistic", in double blind ABX level matched testing I could not tell the Valve Amp from the near SOTA SS amp so my real conclusion is "Tube Sound" is a myth.

Love your posts here Levimax. But just curious: This being audio science forum, wouldn’t you say that a single personal test on this is, statistically, grossly underpowered in terms of the generalization “ tube sound is a myth” ?

When I did my blind test, and reliably identified my tube preamp from my solid-state preamp, I did not take it to justify inferring that all tube pre-amplifiers sound different from solid-state amplifiers.

Not to mention, I posted review measurements of a 300 B amplifier that people here said would clearly cause audible colorations versus a solid state app on many loudspeakers.

So just wondering, would you like to clarify what you mean by tube sound being a myth?

 

[levimax]

Love your posts here Levimax. But just curious: This being audio science forum, wouldn’t you say that a single personal test on this is, statistically, grossly underpowered in terms of the generalization “ tube sound is a myth” ?

When I did my blind test, and reliably identified my tube preamp from my solid-state preamp, I did not take it to justify inferring that all tube pre-amplifiers sound different from solid-state amplifiers.

Not to mention, I posted review measurements of a 300 B amplifier that people here said would clearly cause audible colorations versus a solid state app on many loudspeakers.

So just wondering, would you like to clarify what you mean by tube sound being a myth?

My personal experience is that I heard very distinct differences between my tube amp and my SS amps until I added "controls" i.e. level matched and blind at which point I could not reliably tell them apart and either could several other people that tried.

Obviously tube amps measure much differently than SS amps and unfortunately the more "modern" the tube amp the worse they tend to measure. Back when tube amps were the only game in town the designers stived for low noise and distortion. Currently tube amps are often designed to be "effects boxes" with terrible measured performance which could possibly lead to audible differences. The fact that "terrible measured performance" still sounds "good" or even "better" to many people does not mean that tubes have any special "magical" properties, rather that human hearing is not particularly sensitive to distortion when listening to music.

It is one thing to read about blind testing but to actually experience it for yourself is something I would highly recommend to everyone. Once you hear for yourself how insignificant or non existent differences in competent electronics are (anything with -60 dB / 0.1% distortion or less) it is very liberating. You don't have to chase magic ideas or even SINAD and you don't need to spend a lot of money or energy on electronics. Get electronics with enough power and low enough noise and distortion and the features you want and you are good. This allows you to spend energy and money on the things that are audibly different to most people (like me) which is speakers and the room. I also like to chase around different masterings as I also find mastering differences to be much greater than differences between electronics.

 

[solderdude]

Personally I do not believe that simply simulating the resistance of a valve amplifier is enough to replicate the sound of one. For a science based forum there's a hell of a lot of this:
"Just do it with EQ... or a resistor".
"It's just the impedance".
I doubt it very much. Way too simplistic if you ask me.
My 2c

To simulate you might need to add a resistance that differs per frequency band, a simple resistor may get you closer than not using the appropriate one.

You may need to EQ (at both extremes of the audible band) but have that EQ varying on output level in the bass. You might get away with some fixed roll-off but might not be the exact same effect but could get you closer than no bandwidth limiting.

You could add harmonics but this too would have to be level and frequency dependent but when you determine the transfer function of the amp (a combination of the tubes with their individual local feedback) you may get close enough for a decent emulation.

In DSP and by characterization of the amp you can simulate the FR and distortion well enough and only might need to add a resistor to do the speaker interaction.

Then .... probably the most important one ... you might need to convince yourself that you are actually listening to the real thing (by seeing one with tubes glowing).

IMO it thus is a combination of simulate-able factors that have to be determined and some 'mindset' thingies (thinking you are listening to something that contains unexplained magic) and a output resistance that is somewhat close to the real thing.

Is that as easy as 'it is just impedance add a resistor' ? No it might not be but is a great contributor.
Is it as easy as using DSP which simulates a tube ? No but might contribute a little.
Is it as easy as using some roll-off (and or phase shifts) ? No but might contribute a little.
Is it as easy as believing tubes contain 'unmeasurable magic' ? No but might contribute a lot.

 

[Chr1]

Indeed. And I certainly don't believe that tube amps contain any kind of unmeasurable magic. Just that to do everything correctly to emulate a good one is probably not very easy. I keep meaning to test some of the current tube VSTs as I would like to see where they are at currently. Probably very good. (As in: non-distinguishable from the real thing.) My feeling is that the particular harmonic distortion profile is likely the key to getting the sound right, if trying "manually" with basic DSP/EQ.

On a side note, I do still love the warm glow too. And tho only putting out 140W, count the heat as a blessing at this time of year. (It's about 10 C in my living room much of January and February.)

 

[MattHooper]

My personal experience is that I heard very distinct differences between my tube amp and my SS amps until I added "controls" i.e. level matched and blind at which point I could not reliably tell them apart and either could several other people that tried.

Obviously tube amps measure much differently than SS amps and unfortunately the more "modern" the tube amp the worse they tend to measure. Back when tube amps were the only game in town the designers stived for low noise and distortion. Currently tube amps are often designed to be "effects boxes" with terrible measured performance which could possibly lead to audible differences. The fact that "terrible measured performance" still sounds "good" or even "better" to many people does not mean that tubes have any special "magical" properties, rather that human hearing is not particularly sensitive to distortion when listening to music.

It is one thing to read about blind testing but to actually experience it for yourself is something I would highly recommend to everyone. Once you hear for yourself how insignificant or non existent differences in competent electronics are (anything with -60 dB / 0.1% distortion or less) it is very liberating. You don't have to chase magic ideas or even SINAD and you don't need to spend a lot of money or energy on electronics. Get electronics with enough power and low enough noise and distortion and the features you want and you are good. This allows you to spend energy and money on the things that are audibly different to most people (like me) which is speakers and the room. I also like to chase around different masterings as I also find mastering differences to be much greater than differences between electronics.

Thanks for clarifying.

I certainly agree, there’s no magic about tubes. (well unless we’re talking about some impressions of the sound )

I agree on the educational nature of doing blind tests. I’ve done quite a number and have experienced sighted listening impressions disappearing under blind testing, and occasionally sighted impressions confirmed by blind testing.

Just like your blind testing of tube amplification cured you of caring about tube amps, early blind testing of expensive AC cables cured me of ever caring about those.

Your recommendations about where to spend money are sensible.

My experience is that I’ve found experimenting with tube amplification (I’ve tried various over the years) to be immensely gratifying and one of the pleasures of my own audio journey. So it’s been much more important to me than it is for you.

However, like you, especially if somebody was starting out, I wouldn’t be directing them to buying tube amps.

Cheers.

 

[Miguelón]

Thanks for clarifying.

I certainly agree, there’s no magic about tubes. (well unless we’re talking about some impressions of the sound )

I agree on the educational nature of doing blind tests. I’ve done quite a number and have experienced sighted listening impressions disappearing under blind testing, and occasionally sighted impressions confirmed by blind testing.

Just like your blind testing of tube amplification cured you of caring about tube amps, early blind testing of expensive AC cables cured me of ever caring about those.

Your recommendations about where to spend money are sensible.

My experience is that I’ve found experimenting with tube amplification (I’ve tried various over the years) to be immensely gratifying and one of the pleasures of my own audio journey. So it’s been much more important to me than it is for you.

However, like you, especially if somebody was starting out, I wouldn’t be directing them to buying tube amps.

Cheers.

Do they sound so different?

I meant, if one has to do a blind test to clarify the question, should not be more than 5-10 % added THD, am I wrong?

I always assumed that all objects or machines in daily life have also an affective value, if your tube amp add this positive emotion to you, its peculiar sound may be perceived as pleasant…

Mi manual coffee grinder and my pour-over paper filter system cause me a pleasure that add to my coffee, I have an espresso machine with an electric noisy grinder but the quiet ritual of pouring carefully the water after grinding the coffee by my own hand tastes so good…