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I think I found why some people like high distortion tube amps and some don't

Rainier939

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I was just watching a Veritasium video about audio illusions. In the first segment they explain the trick of using the harmonic structure of a note to trick the brain into hearing a fundimental that is not there. Well as a lot of people in the comments pointed out. Not everybody hears that phantom fundimental but just distortion added to the true fundimental of the tone that's played. I only hear a distortion and no phantom fundimental and I do not care for tube amps. I like a cleaner signal. This must be the same meganism why people say tube amps sound "warm". Those people hear that phantom fundimental shifitng the tone of the amp down making it more mellow of a sound.

 
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Speaking of the topic of the thread. Page 41, #802:

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pkane tested that plug in with results you can see in the thread I linked above, #803
Screenshot_2025-02-14_160448.jpgScreenshot_2025-02-14_160501.jpgScreenshot_2025-02-14_160507.jpg


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Here it is explained and exemplified with odd vs even harmonic distortion. With even harmonic distortion it sounds less sharp, less aggressive. More of a cozy soft, round or "warm" sound. Or you could also say mushy or imprecise.Likes and tastes and all that.;):)
Or for that matter a "cozy" tube sound as a tube loving dude might say. Listen to the comparison with the drums starting at 2:10 into the video.


BUT this in the sound mix. The sound the sound engineer, the musician wants. It's a completely different thing than adding something after the recording.
Although I myself boost up the bass on old hard rock recordings because they tend to be so bass thin.
 
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In my SAE Audio Engineering DIploma Course (yeah, I was young and naive) there was a mention of the "residual effect" of our hearing where the root note is simulated in our brain based off the harmonics a sound has. That's why you can "hear" the root note even though the speaker only starts reproducing at around 120 Hz. Maybe those distortions actually help with that, making it a little easier or more precise for the amp so you can hear that virtual ... uh ... "bass"?
 
I don't believe that he said that it was.
Presumably there can be similarities with the harmonics added by valve amplifiers however.
 
Yes it's about the harmonics added by the signal chain and not the harmonics in the music itself. Tube amps have 1-5% thd at rated power so with some dinamic peak in the music you might get enough harmonics added that this phenomenon might occur.
 
I was just watching a Veritasium video about audio illusions. In the first segment they explain the trick of using the harmonic structure of a note to trick the brain into hearing a fundimental that is not there. Well as a lot of people in the comments pointed out. Not everybody hears that phantom fundimental but just distortion added to the true fundimental of the tone that's played. I only hear a distortion and no phantom fundimental and I do not care for tube amps. I like a cleaner signal. This must be the same meganism why people say tube amps sound "warm". Those people hear that phantom fundimental shifitng the tone of the amp down making it more mellow of a sound.


It is absolutely true that humans will perceive a sound as having a certain pitch when the low order harmonics, say up through about the 5th harmonic, of that pitch are present in the signal but not the fundamental, particularly with audio information that is below 5kHz.

There's decades of scientific research in psychoacoustics and hearing on this and many other aspects of pitch perception (and pitch is a perception related to but not the same as the periodicity of the signal the person is responding to). It's science, not voodoo.

Although the mechanisms for this are not comprehensively understood, it seems to related to the fact that in our cochleas basically do a little kind of Fourier transforms on incoming waveforms, with different locations on the cochlea's basalar membrane responding to different frequency parts of an incoming complex wave, then, the nerves that fire as a result of membrane movement and deflection of the tip end of the inner hair cells at each of those points, are phase locked to that particular frequency within the complex waveform.

It seems that we they have a brain comparison mechanism to kind of decide what the pitch of this complex sound is based on the timing and location information of its component parts taken in at the cochlea -- so, if the harmonics associated with a natural sound that would have had the fundamental of 200 Hz, are present and the nerve firing pattern of is present -- we will perceive a pitch of 200 Hz even if the 200 Hz fundamental is not present. Experiments show that if the row of tones are not mathematically appropriate integers related to a particular phantom harmonic, our perception of the sound's pitch will be ambiguous and varied.

When the harmonic series of the phantom fundamental represents what would only be the high order harmonics -- like 10th, 11th, etc -- pitch perception also becomes ambiguous. And, because our inner ear nerve firing is fast, but not THAT fast, for frequencies over about 5kHz, the phase locking of our inner ear nerve firing breaks down (it takes too long for the nerve firing mechanism to come to rest and then first again to stay lock on the same phase point in the cycle), and also our ability to form a perception of pitch breaks down -- if you play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" with sounds only above 5kHz, it will be hard for humans to discern the melody.

Also worth noting, our pitch perception for sinusoid tones and for complex tones is not the same (stimulus level intensity can also impact our perception of pitch).

Certainly it seems like harmonic distortion has something to do with why some people like and prefer the sound of tube amps. But I'm not sure it has to do specifically with pitch perception -- don't forget the harmonic distortion present in the amp is derived from the signal -- there IS the fundamental AND its recorded harmonic present in addition to whatever other harmonic information is being generated by distortion. More likely it has to do with timbre perception.

Timbre is, like pitch, not a physical attribute of a sound but a perception, in this case related too but not the same as the presence, spectrum, amplitude, and changing envelope of the harmonic content of a complex sound as well to characteristic aspects of the attack of the sound. We put information about these things -- and perhaps other things, certainly including memory of the timbres of instruments we've heard -- together in our minds to form a perception of timbre. Anything in the audio chain that impacts the harmonic content of a complex sound -- and certainly harmonic distortion does -- and the attack characteristics of a sound, can have an impact on a listener's perception of timbre. And certainly tube amps with certainly degrees and spectrums of harmonic distortion can be perceived as having a timbral richness and texture that is more pleasurable to a given listener than other kinds of sounds, and also can be more closely associated with that listener's perceptual model of what "real" music sounds like.

There are probably other things as well that people may be responding too in tube amps that make them sound more pleasurable -- like frequency response alteration under load -- and more real to a listener, and other things that high levels of lower order harmonic distortion might be doing to mask higher order harmonic distortion. But I do think it's how the harmonic distortion effects the timbre that is the primary element, not so much how the harmonic content impacts the perception of phantom pitches.

The thing about audio is that our hearing and our perception is a really complicated process -- more complicated than our visual system -- and one that involves not only the brain assigning meaning the sounds we take in to form a perception, but also an active connection and feedback loop from the brain to the inner ear through the descending auditory pathway that literally allows our brains to actively shape our hearing at input; and, furthermore, there's plasticity in the descending auditory pathway, like, it appears to have slightly different performance characteristics in professional musicians than others, so what we hear is very much shaped by what we've learned.

(As a side note, the best guess for why we fill in fundamentals that aren't present to form a perception of pitch when a particular series of tones that correspond to the harmonic series of that fundamental are present, is because from birth we're immediately exposed to sounds in the world around us that have these characteristics so we learn pitch.)

On top of that, our hearing and our perception behave differently with complex tones than they do with sinusoidal tones -- which is one of the reasons why the kind of testing we do on audio equipment, while they're very good at telling us what the equipment is doing and what differences there are between equipment, doesn't always tightly correspond to how people hear music played with the equipment. A recorded music waveform going into the ear is a crazy complex single complex wave that our inner ear breaks down into multiple component frequencies from which we can form a perception, and somehow in that process our ears and brains can take this signal full of overlapping information at all kinds of frequencies, and, say with an orchestral recording -- still recognize and assign the timbral characteristics of a clarinet to the clarinet that's playing the same note at the same time as the entire violin section. That's a hell of a complicated -- and fast -- hearing and perceptual process.
 
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Excellent post.

Just realised that you left the rather good post on the thread about timbre too. Very informative.Thank you.
 
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I grew up with a tube TV and radio. They produced "full, warm" sound. In comparison, a transistor radio of that era sounded tinny, being small, no power, a small speaker etc.
Modern days, or even 90s CD mini-stations/radios/combo units, outdone any tube competition.
Tubes burn out. Tubes need warming up. It's a constant struggle.
The "return of tubes an vinyl" is purely money-driven. Keep buying our tubes, which will burn within a year. Keep buying vinyls, which will start skipping very shortly after the purchase.
 
Excellent post.

Just realised that you left the rather good post on the thread about timbre too. Very informative.Thank you.
Based on what I've seen on another forum, Chervokas is a voice of reason, knows a lot about music, and is generally a smart guy.
 
Curious, what is it about his presentation and content that leads you to a snake oil comparo? Big stretch IMO.

Can't stand the guy. Might as well listen to a sales pitch about expensive power cables ....
 
I will add that your input here will be very welcome. Seems to me that, though there are many knowledgeable people and experts here from various areas of audio science, from what I can make out, few are particularly knowledgeable in the realm of psychoacoustics.
Personally I find it one of the most interesting parts of this hobby.
Anyhoo... Wecome!
 
Curious, what is it about his presentation and content that leads you to a snake oil comparo? Big stretch IMO.
I find the titles click-baity. I stay away from those.
I haven't watched the video posted at the beginning of the thread, partially because I don't expect a black-and-white convincing "explanation". The main thing I find annoying is that he seems to switch the perspective of the subject or presenting it with some sort of verbal distortion which produces interesting verbal imagery, and creates running minutes for video content, but in the end you are not left with something that feels concrete.

Sort of like taking an online tour of a house, or hotel room. It looks good on the srcreen...when you get there, it's a little smaller than what you expected.

He creates content...It seems to work well for him. But not for me.
 
I only hear a distortion and no phantom fundimental and I do not care for tube amps. I like a cleaner signal. This must be the same meganism why people say tube amps sound "warm"
You are making the mistake of reaching a conclusion unsupported by sufficient evidence. (Sample size 1 - you).

You are also perhaps not understanding how the illusion works. It only creates an illusion of a fundamental - if the fundamental is missing. But harmonic distortion only creates harmonics based on a fundamental that exists.

Furthermore - harmonic distortion components are typically at very low levels (inaudible or at least less than 1% of the level of the music - even in badly distorting amps). That means any "phantom fundamental" even if it were to exist at all - would be at similarly low levels.

Those people hear that phantom fundimental shifitng the tone of the amp down
And there is not one iota of evidence in your post to support this statement.
 
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