Do vibrations have an impact on solid-state amplifiers' sound quality?

[OldHvyMec]

Isn't this audio science review? Lets not talk, but measure!

I wonder how you measure rudeness, is that just a subjective thing or just personally subjective?

And God forbid if measuring is all that is done on this forum. I'd be bored to DEATH! How many times can you measure the same thing and point out a .0001 difference in distortion when you can't tell the difference in 10% on sub/bass drivers? Heck let's make that 20% for rookies!

BTW my test equipment is worn out from testing vibration crap in my line of work. Foundational drilling and Drifter design/repair. This is for fun there is nothing serious
going on in stereo equipment other than being WAY overpriced and over-measured. When there is a problem you MEASURE.

Retired HD Master-Mechanic. Powertrain and Hydraulic design.

Regards

 

[OldHvyMec]

suffering symptoms of vibrations?
here's a treatment, available over-the-counter and at modest cost.

You know I've seen them and a few buddies have tried them but they don't work very well on valve gear or at all on turntable setups that have a pretty good sub/bass system. My issue is valve life over the long term. Tubes can be very temperamental and some of the best I've used can be shaken apart if you're not careful.
I've never been one for valve-damping O-rings either. They can kill a great-sounding valve from being over-dampened.


I've always stuck to my designs or a proven design like bellows (pods) air-ride (my design) or springs with damping (shocks or accumulators).

Vibration control in my old line of work costs BILLIONS in equipment repair every year. Drifter and Breaker repair were just parts of my job. Then not beating a hydraulic system to death which can cost 2-3 times what the actual drifter costs. They aren't cheap 10-150K depending on what you're doing. Breakers 10-100K a pop.
Hydraulic base machines are well over 2 million in some cases. They average 500-600K for a tie-back rig.

Like I tell my kids and friend when they get all bent out of shape over some BS about a sound system. This is for fun the real sound engineers are working for
the Highway department or designing a mall/casino next to an airport and the glasses are vibration inside the bar. They can get pretty nasty about that kind of stuff.

At least this stuff is entertaining and how serious people can get just cracks me up.

Be of good cheer and with Great Regard.

 

[KL....]

words.
they're impotent.
important.


ahem.
on topic:
suffering symptoms of vibrations?
here's a treatment, available over-the-counter and at modest cost.
Available in EVA or cork, in many different sizes.
Amazon has 'em, too -- or they can be bought with audiophile brand names for higher cost.

View attachment 438688
View attachment 438689

Anti-Vibration Pads | U.S. Plastic Corp.

Vibration isolator pads are designed to work with any type of machinery that shakes, vibrates, or receives pressure of any kind. The vibr...

www.usplastic.com

Thank you, intrigueing, cork is a fabulous composition isn't it? Have you tried these under your speakers (elsewhere), as a method of coupling/decoupling (as I like to call it)? If yes, what were your findings? It is easy to over dampen, isn't it? Diffusion (Standing Wave formation is the issue, isn't it?) is usually the best approach (where possible), isn't it?

 

[JeffS7444]

I once built a solid state phono preamplifier based on a design by Erno Borbely, all discrete, through-hole, DC-coupled and $$. During initial testing, I noted that I could see the effects of tapping on the chassis at the output, at least on my oscilloscope. And if I blew a puff of air across it's heatsinks, I witnessed a small but definite change in DC offset too. I felt this was of no real-world consequence, but it made me appreciate integrated circuits, and circuits with much lower part counts!

 

[Hayabusa]

I wonder how you measure rudeness, is that just a subjective thing or just personally subjective?

what about a sub next to your amp that slams 110dB at 20Hz?

 

[KL....]

I once built a solid state phono preamplifier based on a design by Erno Borbely, all discrete, through-hole, DC-coupled and $$. During initial testing, I noted that I could see the effects of tapping on the chassis at the output, at least on my oscilloscope. And if I blew a puff of air across it's heatsinks, I witnessed a small but definite change in DC offset too. I felt this was of no real-world consequence, but it made me appreciate integrated circuits, and circuits with much lower part counts!

Thank you, there is an old saying, 'components like to sing with the signal/noise/distortion and they play there own tune which may need to be tamed (my word.... diffused), so they sing your intended tune, not theirs'.

edit: it could be suggested that your experience and the old saying has been considered in the manufactureing processes, nowadays, but it is good to keep in mind, if necessary, isn't it?

 

[The Dunster]

I had a microphonic tube on my hifi amp that would pop when the cd drawer closed,

 

[boxerfan88]

Can vibrations have a real impact on solid-state amplifiers' sound quality?

Yes, certainly. When one is rocking to 100dBSPL, surely all the vibrations will have microphonic impact on all equipment in the vicinity.

The impact is probably at a level -144dB down that I wouldn’t care too much about it

 

[mixsit]

To add to this, wouldn’t active speakers have significant issues if this were a real-world problem?

Thank you Sir!

 

[Hayabusa]

Yes, certainly. When one is rocking to 100dBSPL, surely all the vibrations will have microphonic impact on all equipment in the vicinity.

The impact is probably at a level -144dB down that I wouldn’t care too much about it

When I am back from my holiday I am going to remove that 'probably'

 

[Travis]

Where vibrations interact with electronics is most critical is aviation and aerospace. There are NASA, DOJ, and FAA specs on all of this.

Optics require vibration free environments, Electron Microscopes for example, electronics need some dampening material between the chassis of the electronics and the air/spacecraft,

Wasn’t @amirm going to get a vibrating device and attach it to a few amps, preamps, dacs , etc. just to see if it changed any measurements?

How can there not be papers on this already? Or is this one of those things that is so blatantly obvious no one was interested in doing a paper?

Travis

 

[NTK]

Anyone care to guess what the SPL and vibration levels are at the cameras (that have both optics and electronics in them) that took these pictures and/or videos?

I'd say the technology to deal with the kind of vibrations in domestic sound reproduction applications is probably quite mature.

 

[Sokel]

Anyone care to guess what the SPL and vibration levels are at the cameras (that have both optics and electronics in them) that took these pictures and/or videos?

I'd say the technology to deal with the kind of vibrations in domestic sound reproduction applications is probably quite mature.

It doesn't look affordable though:

NASA's Artemis Marks First-Ever 8K Immersive Live Broadcast

MeetMo and Felix & Paul Studios collaboration allows NASA Artemis 1 launch to be viewed worldwide in 8K live broadcast...

www.globenewswire.com

 

[NTK]

They use "standard civilian" gear too.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7997062873/nasa-photographer-bill-ingalls-camera-melted-in-fire-caused-by-rocket-launch

 

[mhardy6647]

I mean... Hasselblad.

Zeiss, too... and Nikon (but I couldn't find any good photos of the latter).

 

[antcollinet]

Or is this one of those things that is so blatantly obvious no one was interested in doing a paper?

This.

Solid-state electronics, sat in a typical audio environment, don't need any vibration isolation.

If you want to take the lid off a DAC and tap the PCB in the vicinity of a crystal oscilator with a pencil, that might be a different thing. But if it is, then the solution is easy and obvious. Don't do it.

 

[Hayabusa]

Ok, just for fun I did a simple experiment:

Wired up a Topping LA90 discrete with dummy-load playing 1KHz at 5 watts.
I put it in front of an SVS16 sub that played 20Hz @ 110dB SPL at that position.

First picture: without the sub sound, second picture with the 20Hz sub sound.

We can safely conclude that this test does not make any change in the amp's output!
Most likely my ADC is not good enough, but at least it shows no changes within the -100dB range.
Maybe @amirm can do such a test in a more professional environment with the AP?

 

[sq225917]

I've serviced hundreds of bits of gear over the years. And often with solid state gear a good tap test on components can identify a faulty part. But replace this part or resolder the bad joint it and its fixed. No amount of banging around in a solid state amp creates any visible output on a scope.

Of course, valve amps, cd players and turntables can be made to misbehave.

It's just not an issue, any errant noise from vibration is buried in the noise floor by a couple of orders of magnitude.

 

[Count Arthur]

I've serviced hundreds of bits of gear over the years. And often with solid state gear a good tap test on components can identify a faulty part. But replace this part or resolder the bad joint it and its fixed. No amount of banging around in a solid state amp creates any visible output on a scope.

Of course, valve amps, cd players and turntables can be made to misbehave.

It's just not an issue, any errant noise from vibration is buried in the noise floor by a couple of orders of magnitude.

I stumbled across this Louis Rossmann video the other day where he demonstrates how to find a faulty component with a pencil, which I thought was pretty neat:

 

[Travis]

I mean... Hasselblad.
View attachment 441633
Zeiss, too... and Nikon (but I couldn't find any good photos of the latter).

View attachment 441634

Top photo is the Hasselblad “lunar data camera” with special back with the precision Reseau grid plate (thus the grids in all the lunar photos) with a highly modified 60mm Zeiss Distagon lens.

The specs for that camera, like the radios, instruments, and everything else that went on those flights were 0 to +/- 20 G’s for up to 3 mins, in any direction. A shock rating of 30 G’s (that would destroy pretty much any consumer electronic equipment, but anything that made it through that then has to survive a solar flare of up to 600 rads (which will fry all electronics without special covers) and then must operate (not survive, but operate) in temps from -186 to 115 C, and handle 100% humidity including condensation for 5 days from 80 to 125 F.

Like I said, the specs for NASA and FAA are pretty specific, vibration isn’t going to impact anything that is made and approved for aviation or space flight.

The bottom photo is Edward White, II on Gemini IV, on man’s first space walk (which about killed him from physical exertion trying to control his whackey propulsion system). That camera is a Robot brand camera, the model is the Recorder, also heavily modified.

A Nikon F (FTn prism) went up on Apollo 15, in the Command Module (which may be why harder to find photos?). Also heavily modified (fire proofed battery compartments, etc.).

There are some instruments that are very sensitive to vibration, like electron microscopes, some test instruments, and they are installed on Vibraplanes that null inherit vibration in buildings. Audio doesn’t seem to be impacted by it at all.

But all it would take is a Sonicare toothbrush set on top of the next 5 or 6 things Amir tests, on and off.