If tubes amplifiers measure poorly, why are they perceived as sounding better?

[WisEd]

EQ and tone controls are indeed often useful. But it has zero to do with whether you use amplifiers based on tubes or on transistors.

Its not about tonal quality at all. Tubes create higher order distortion. In effect they are a "less perfect" reproduction of the recorded material. To some, that is an endearing characteristic. Since the are less resolving, the difference between very good recording and more mundane ones is less stark. The very best tube amps everything sounds "pleasant" in the bad ones everything sounds flat nad unprecise. For tube aficionados its an endless search for the perfect mix to achieve that often elusive objective. Or, if you are very wealthy you buy an Audio Research referrence amp and thats it Even further complicating the matter and the hobby is that tubes in fact change over time! Though after burn-in ( a real thing with tubes) they perform to spec for years, then then they subtlety and progressively change till they fail. Tubes are a journey, not a destination! Aother endearing aspect of tubes is that they are suceptible to "microphonics." In effect, microvariations in signal that can be induced when musical feedback wiggles the tubes in their sockets! It's actually less common (and much cheaper to remedy) than the isolator salesmen would let on, but yet an additional "fun factor"

The hundreds of millions of dollars that other people, (again, not me) spend on the myriad of tube amp company products would beg to differ! So does the seemigly endless rush to put a tube in components, even DAC's!
Personally I like my amp's AB in pushpull configuration with output tranformers to boot!

 

[amirm]

EQ and tone controls are indeed often useful. But it has zero to do with whether you use amplifiers based on tubes or on transistors.

Its not about tonal quality at all. Tubes create higher order distortion. In effect they are a "less perfect" reproduction of the recorded material. To some, that is an endearing characteristic. Since the are less resolving, the difference between very good recording and more mundane ones is less stark. The very best tube amps everything sounds "pleasant" in the bad ones everything sounds flat nad unprecise. For tube aficionados its an endless search for the perfect mix to achieve that often elusive objective. Or, if you are very wealthy you buy an Audio Research referrence amp and thats it Even further complicating the matter and the hobby is that tubes in fact change over time! Though after burn-in ( a real thing with tubes) they perform to spec for years, then then they subtlety and progressively change till they fail. Tubes are a journey, not a destination! Aother endearing aspect of tubes is that they are suceptible to "microphonics." In effect, microvariations in signal that can be induced when musical feedback wiggles the tubes in their sockets! It's actually less common (and much cheaper to remedy) than the isolator salesmen would let on, but yet an additional "fun factor"

You are just repeating folklore among audiophiles. Come and show in a controlled test that those things are true, not assumed.

This is what non-linearity does to 32 tones:

All those extra spikes add high-frequency energy, causing music to get bright. Further, all low level detail is obliterated.

These are added to the effect of tube amp high output impedance causing variable impact on frequency response of the speaker. This impact will impart another tonality change that is a constant over everything you play.

This is not what we call high fidelity much less something we pay thousands of dollars.

So please move on from lay arguments. We know them. We have heard them. We know they are not true.

 

[amirm]

The hundreds of millions of dollars that other people, (again, not me) spend on the myriad of tube amp company products would beg to differ!

The market is not remotely that big. The entire high-end market is likely smaller than that, let alone just the tube amplifier section. But sure, folks are so bamboozled by nonsense marketing and lay assumption that they go and buy $100K+ tube amps. So what? This just shows they don't know what they are doing than any kind of validation of fidelity. Otherwise, instead of measuring and listening to audio products, we would just go by their market share!

 

[amirm]

Personally I like my amp's AB in pushpull configuration with output tranformers to boot!

Those transforming are messing the response of your speaker with their high impedance. As I noted above, you are imparting random tone controls on every piece of music, spitting in the face of people who created the music for you.

 

[WisEd]

You are just repeating folklore among audiophiles. Come and show in a controlled test that those things are true, not assumed.

This is what non-linearity does to 32 tones:

All those extra spikes add high-frequency energy, causing music to get bright. Further, all low level detail is obliterated.

These are added to the effect of tube amp high output impedance causing variable impact on frequency response of the speaker. This impact will impart another tonality change that is a constant over everything you play.

This is not what we call high fidelity much less something we pay thousands of dollars.

So please move on from lay arguments. We know them. We have heard them. We know they are not true.

Im not arguing that!
To some people, that imperfection, is music to their ears and exactly what they want.
I, personally, I'm not in that camp. Yet, I understand that affectation. As you have well pointed out, it's readily measurable, not snake oil. Some people's trash is other people's treasure.

 

[WisEd]

Im not arguing that!
To some people, that imperfection, is music to their ears and exactly what they want.
I, personally, I'm not in that camp. Yet, I understand that affectation. As you have well pointed out, it's readily measurable, not snake oil. Some people's trash is other people's treasure

Those transforming are messing the response of your speaker with their high impedance. As I noted above, you are imparting random tone controls on every piece of music, spitting in the face of people who created the music for you.

Read Erin's test.

Which BTW, echoe's Streophile's findings almost to the letter

Matching your speakers lowest impedance to the matching winding is what enables the same specs to any particular impedance. Instead of quoting different higher powers (without further qualifications) at lower impedance, they quote and deliver the same exact, full bandwidth, power and distortion ratings. This is not any electronic novelty or discovery. It's been aroud since the 50's. It just expensive and heavy. Simply a case of, it works and it isn't broken.....don't fix it!

 

[SIY]

I once in a while, I wouldn't mind a little warmth in the mix

Its not about tonal quality at all.

Make up your mind.

However to match the same fidelity in a much bigger package is usually a steep climb in price and a limited selection of choices.

Neither is even vaguely true.

You wouldn't try to drive your full range floor standing speakers with the best existing headphone amp!

Depends on their efficiency.

 

[SIY]

Matching your speakers lowest impedance to the matching winding is what enables the same specs to any particular impedance

No, this is also incorrect.

Personally I like my amp's AB in pushpull configuration with output tranformers to boot!

Feel free to like them, but understand that this has no effect on the sound of an engineered amp.

 

[WisEd]

Ok I'll bite, quote me all the amplifies that will deliver 300 watts or more from 20 to 20 K at .005 THD +N at any impedance for less than 5K. No caveats, must meet those specs or better!

 

[WisEd]

No, this is also incorrect.

Feel free to like them, but understand that this has no effect on the sound of an engineered amp.

I give up. Its becomes a circuitous discussion.

 

[WisEd]

You are just repeating folklore among audiophiles. Come and show in a controlled test that those things are true, not assumed.

This is what non-linearity does to 32 tones:

All those extra spikes add high-frequency energy, causing music to get bright. Further, all low level detail is obliterated.

These are added to the effect of tube amp high output impedance causing variable impact on frequency response of the speaker. This impact will impart another tonality change that is a constant over everything you play.

This is not what we call high fidelity much less something we pay thousands of dollars.

So please move on from lay arguments. We know them. We have heard them. We know they are not true.

Come on, that is a particularly poor example of the breed. No McIntosh or Audio research tube amp looks like that. The distortion profile will be similar, thats why transistors almost made tubes disappear, but a well engineered tube amplifier using feedback can reduce that horror story by a factor of 10. The point is that 'for some people, ultimate resolution and fidelity is not their cup of tea! That, obviously, is an engineering no-no. However, this is a listening hobby! A Fender Stratocaster is not a worse instrument than an acoustic Fender or an Ibanez. I'ts just a different one.
I, like you, like transparency first and foremost. Our aim is to hear what is recorded (the artist's intention, we hope) good or bad. But let's face it, that is not everyone's goal or preference. Simply pointing out that it's bad because it's distorted is not constructive. A better approach would be to point out which of the inherently disorted amps is less distorted or has a better distortion profile. With tubes, unfortunately, it comes down to individual taste. Furthermore discounting the high fi industry makes no sense, If there were no money in it you wouldn't see companies like Matsushita, Nippon Gakki and other electronic giants spending tons of millions resurrecting line ups that had been dormant for decades. Will it ever replace digital? Of course not! But people with big bucks are seeing big dollar signs everywhere they look! So for the time being and the close foreseeable future analog will continue to make strides and money and will benefit from guys that measure, so as to see what is worth it, what is not, what ia good value and what is total BS!

 

[SIY]

Ok I'll bite, quote me all the amplifies that will deliver 300 watts or more from 20 to 20 K at .005 THD +N at any impedance for less than 5K. No caveats, must meet those specs or better!

I have several of them on hand. Purifi, Orchard, Hypex...

 

[amirm]

I give up. Its becomes a circuitous discussion.

Take caution in your tone. You are arguing with an expert in tube amplifier design. When SIY tells you something about them, you need to listen, not argue.

 

[WisEd]

Take caution in your tone. You are arguing with an expert in tube amplifier design. When SIY tells you something about them, you need to listen, not argue.

yhose were talking about ae not tubes

 

[amirm]

No McIntosh or Audio research tube amp looks like that.

How do you know? Here is an AR research solid state amplifier: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-research-d300-power-amplifier-review.10158/

These are horrible by any measure. Here is Topping Amp in comparison:

Here is an AR tube amp: https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-classic-60-power-amplifier-measurements

You would get me to put my name on a design like this. It is an insult to the hobby of "high fidelity" to produce such distortion factories. Yet they do because their marketing message has worked so well that people shell out tons more money for less fidelity.

 

[WisEd]

I have several of them on hand. Purifi, Orchard, Hypex...

Not surprised you would go the class D route!
Yet, here are the specs

Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra Amplifier Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra weighs only fourteen pounds yet it can output 500W into a 4-Ohm load. It does this with a new...

hometheaterhifi.com

125W at 8 ohms (1/4 of the specified above) 500 at 2 W power quoted at 1 KHz ( even so at 2 its it"s THD is 10 times higher than what we agreed to above.)
Class D has improved yet the high frequency non linearity particularly at low impedance and high power output is far from resolved. Which is true for the class as a whole and may never be resolved.
So none yet.

 

[WisEd]

As I pointed out, distortion profile is similar but much lower. And again, tubes are not my choice precisely for that reason. Hardcore "tubers" in fact not infrequently complain that Audio Research amp are not tubey enough!
On an aside, did you have a chance to put my Ortofon ST70 through the wringer? I'd love to know whether it measures any better or worse than powered MC amps or the admittedly subtle improvements I "think" I hear are just starry eyed "extra box" effect.
The Ortofon guy E mailed again . They love to see your test and take on it.

 

[SIY]

Yet, here are the specs

And here are the measurements (taken from Leo's website, and I've done enough comparative measurements to know that his are solid and honest).

 

[WisEd]

And here are the measurements (taken from Leo's website, and I've done enough comparative measurements to know that his are solid and honest).

View attachment 460386

That's the best case scenario at 8 ohms and 125W max. Lets see the 2 ohm 500W ones.

 

[WisEd]

This was the minimum standard discused at any power at any impedance
from Erins testn not that Atkinson's test show exactly the same results
We see the typical decrease in THD+N as the amplifier moves out of its noisy region and into the distortion-dominated region at both the left and rightmost extremes, respectively. Ultimately what I see is an amplifier with low noise and extreme 2-channel power, hitting well over 500 watts into each of the 2/4/8-ohm loads while still being below 0.001% THD+N. That’s remarkable. More on power in the next section.