Older Amplifiers Better?

[SdeGat]

I am curious to find out if there has been a “ruling”, study or conclusion that older amplifiers sound quality is generally better than the newer ones? (Not talking reliability)

I see comments every now and then about how good a 30 or 40 years old amplifier sounds and is much better than current models. Hasn’t there been design developments over the years that would have improved sound quality?

I, for one, like the look of some of the older amplifiers and their nice looking VU meters but that’s very superficial (and subjective ). And does not help the sound quality. ‍‍

Any thoughts or source of info (testing) on this matter?

 

[Timcognito]

Newer Class D test better but if you like the look of older ones there are exceptions with very good performance. Here are two examples. Others can chime in with more.

Yamaha A-1 Vintage Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yamaha A-1 vintage integrated amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. He tells me that it has been serviced and restored a couple of years ago. The Yamaha A-1 came out in 1977 during a competition to produce the best spec audio products...

www.audiosciencereview.com

NAD 2200 Vintage Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of a refurbished and upgraded NAD 2200 stereo amplifier. It was bought by a member, sent to QuirkAudio to be fully updated and then loaned to me. The work that Peter has done is exemplary. The inside looks brand new! I have repaired hundreds of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[tmtomh]

Old amps do not have better sound quality than new amps, no.

A lot of variables and blanket generalizations one way or the other are bound to be oversimplifications.

But that said, the specs and measured performance will tell the tale. If a 1980s Class AB amp and a 2020s Class D amp both deliver similar wattage, are load-invariant, have similar current capacity (e.g. can both handle lower-impedance speaker loads), and have noise and distortion performance that are either (a) both beyond the threshold of human hearing, or (b) potentially within hearing thresholds but very close to each other, then as long as the 1980s amp is in good repair and performing to spec, both should deliver indistinguishable sound through the same speakers.

 

[Dean Palmer]

Nope, old amps and electronics in general are not better for anything other than nostalgia. We cannot however simply generalize in this case. Think of it this way, the goal for most every manufacturer is to be accurate, and have limited to no coloration of the sound from the devices. We also know that not to be the result of a lot of the designs over the years. Decades ago, meaning 50+ years, there was much more variability between brands and models, and some makers did make gear that benefitted from sticking with the combinations from a single manufacturer. Today we have the resurgence of the popularity of gear with tubes. Tubes can be a huge variable, and affect the harmonics and what the human hearing perceives. So today even with decades of ongoing improvement in specifications, we as humans still have a huge selection of gear that does in fact color the sound and is not "accurate" because we as humans desire these things. Is any of this "better" to our ears??? Well we can be pretty sure with our current ability to measure the faithful reproduction of the signal that we know the results of the signals that are input, to the result of the output more than ever before, and these principals are understood by more people than 50+ years ago. So, we clearly have better sound quality in every measurable way, but the result to the human ear and the way humans' brains work when they spend money on gear, we can't say the result is really better when comparing what should be apples to apples.

 

[Joe Smith]

And, for many, the cost of repair and/or maintenance of vintage equipment makes buying new or newer equipment a safer/less frustrating approach...

I use a mix of vintage and new, both sound equally good to my ears, but most of the vintage amps and receivers I use regularly have been fully restored.

 

[eddantes]

In what sense? In pure distortionless amplification sense? No, very much no. In the reliability sense? No (at least in the sense that the parts are old and possibly degraded). In the UX sense? Kinda even. New stuff often has screens and integrates with our phones; but much old stuff has lovely tactile feel of machined aluminium and wood (some new stuff too). Aesthetics? Kinda. There's no comparisson between something like Topping amp and a 70s Sansui, Accuphase, etc. BUT - then theres NEW, gorgeous, Accuphase amps and some manufacturers are embracing nostalgia - like the NAD C3050 for example.

So all in all - NO - old stuff is not better.

I say this as a collector of old stuff

 

[genesisaudiorack]

I am curious to find out if there has been a “ruling”, study or conclusion that older amplifiers sound quality is generally better than the newer ones? (Not talking reliability)

I see comments every now and then about how good a 30 or 40 years old amplifier sounds and is much better than current models. Hasn’t there been design developments over the years that would have improved sound quality?

I, for one, like the look of some of the older amplifiers and their nice looking VU meters but that’s very superficial (and subjective ). And does not help the sound quality. ‍‍

Any thoughts or source of info (testing) on this matter?

some old amps sound great. but theres a reason why technology and schematics from many years ago arent practiced. there are alot of new designs that are quieter and person better. if old amps were that great, they would be still building the same units they were back then, now....

 

[DVDdoug]

A lot of "audiophiles" are fascinated with outdated (and often inferior) technology (like tubes & vinyl, etc.) ,,, And most of the audiophile community is just nuts!!! This is one of the few rational-scientific resources.

To generalize, new amplifiers are usually better than old designs. But it hasn't been that hard to make a good amp since solid state was introduced. Now it's cheaper & easier to make a good amp, and power (Watts) is cheaper.

if you go-back to the tube days it wasn't that easy and you are more likely to find an amp with audible distortion and frequency response variations. And some listeners may prefer the less-accurate sound.

See Audiophoolery

 

[MRC01]

... I see comments every now and then about how good a 30 or 40 years old amplifier sounds and is much better than current models. Hasn’t there been design developments over the years that would have improved sound quality?

Not really. Good amps from 30-40 years ago were clean enough to have distortion below audible thresholds, and much better than the speakers they are driving. It's hard to improve sound quality beyond that

Any thoughts or source of info (testing) on this matter?

Class D amps have improved and the good ones offer the same high sound quality with higher efficiency. Also lower cost, since much of the cost of an amplifier is involved in proper heat dissipation. That's why old class AB amps having 400+ wpc of power can weigh 30 kilos or more. Higher efficiency -> less heat generated.

 

[egellings]

I think that the old electrically competent gear, properly restored & meeting its specs, will be indistinguishable from newer (switch mode) types in sound quality, once distortions in both are below audibility. Audio amplification is a problem that was solved a long time ago.

 

[egellings]

A lot of "audiophiles" are fascinated with outdated (and often inferior) technology (like tubes & vinyl, etc.) ,,, And most of the audiophile community is just nuts!!! This is one of the few rational-scientific resources.

To generalize, new amplifiers are usually better than old designs. But it hasn't been that hard to make a good amp since solid state was introduced. Now it's cheaper & easier to make a good amp, and power (Watts) is cheaper.

if you go-back to the tube days it wasn't that easy and you are more likely to find an amp with audible distortion and frequency response variations. And some listeners may prefer the less-accurate sound.

See Audiophoolery

Some audio crazies prefer a hyper accurate sound, while others prefer the big tone of the usually less accurate tube & vinyl gear. Enjoy what you like, whatever the accuracy level.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I am curious to find out if there has been a “ruling”, study or conclusion that older amplifiers sound quality is generally better than the newer ones

I don't believe there has been a ruling that older amplifier sound quality is generally better than the newer ones. And I'm not sure who would make that ruling!

What has changed in recent decades is the ability to cheaply, quickly and quite accurately model designs in software and run "what if" queries to determine the benefit or otherwise of a design. This includes multilayer boards with surface mount components and complex and effective ground-planes. One of the key benefits is that low-noise designs are common and cheap and that is not necessarily the case with older designs.

What is not the case is that all older amplifiers are audibly worse than modern amplifiers. There are some older amplifiers which were designed with excellent voltage and current delivery, low noise and low distortion with flat frequency response. If they are in good condition (which may require refurbishment), these should be audibly indistinguishable from a recent equivalent when levels are matched. The only problem is, I don't know which older amplifiers fit this description.

 

[audio_tony]

@restorer-john your thread has arrived!!

 

[audio_tony]

Yes, but multiple folks have already warned against blanket generalizations so why ruin that by having home weigh in?

He can offer a valid opinion IMHO. Whether or not he is biased, it's still interesting to get his views, given the vast experience he has with older gear.

 

[Audionaut]

In my opinion, it is not the age but the quality of the device that matters.
Some Kenwoods with Sigma Drive were fantastic.

I had these amplifiers, among others, and they were great.

 

[eddantes]

@NTTY has measurements of vintage gear. @amirm has done some vintage reviews. There are vintage pieces that are excellent, but there isn't some kind of "lost art" magic about them as the OPs question implies.

 

[Sokel]

Evolution comes out of need.
There's nothing in SQ that makes an older or newer amp to stick out.

What's needed to be done was lighter stuff as freight prices skyrocketed,more efficient for obvious reasons and as the cherry on top we were also introduced with some power ratings that were interesting (only to find out they lasted ms and if for longer or go down to 1 Ohm probably they would need a little lower tonnage of alu,but not much lower)

So,we got there,we have solved the already decades solved factor.What's next?

 

[Yasuo]

No. Why would an old amp sound better? Audio technology has evolved so much...

 

[Clmrt]

Prices can be better on some overlooked items, notwithstanding refurb costs. I lucked into an old ca. 1990 AB International for $100 that had been completely rebuilt - new paste on the outputs, 100% operational and better than spec. If you're willing to accept the "(in)audible differences" between -80db and -120db SINAD (I am), I will always go vintage. Usually. LOL.

I sought out the AB because it is reputed to have roots in Leach/Ottala design philosophy (low feedback, low TIM). And it works. Very well. I could buy 6 of these for the same price as a similarly powered modern class D and not suffer for lack of playback quality. Probably.

 

[egellings]

Prices can be better on some overlooked items, notwithstanding refurb costs. I lucked into an old ca. 1990 AB International for $100 that had been completely rebuilt - new paste on the outputs, 100% operational and better than spec. If you're willing to accept the "(in)audible differences" between -80db and -120db SINAD (I am), I will always go vintage. Usually. LOL.

I sought out the AB because it is reputed to have roots in Leach design philosophy (low feedback). And it works. Very well. I could buy 6 of these for the same price as a similarly powered modern class D and not suffer for lack of playback quality. Probably.

Agree; once SINAD get to a certain level where an improvement cannot be heard, more does not get you any audible benefit. No point in ordering a drop forge when all you need is a tack hammer.