Volume control for power amplifiers

[Wolfram98]

I am thinking upgrading my Speaker amplifier setup.
Currently i use Objective2+ODAC with it's Line-Out to a Pioneer receiver, which feeds my 4ohm speakers.
The line-out is always at 100% volume regardless of the HP amp settings.
The Volume control is done by the receiver and that is how i like it.
With the thinking to the future i want to build something that will last me the next 10 years, as the current system did.
I've been looking at many power amplifiers that have been reviewed that have cutting edge performance, like Topping LA90, NC or Purifi based amps like HPA-S400ET.
The main issue with these kinds of amps is that they do not have remote control for volume/power.
So the standard output from a DAC will blow up my speakers unless i precisely control the volume from my PC(which i try to avoid).

Are there any relatively cheap devices that could control(attenuate) an XLR or RCA signal with a remote control, and a cherry on top would be a Remote trigger functionality to turn on/off the Power amps?

The control requirements are simple:
Power on/off
Mute(nice to have)
Volume Up/Down.

The impact on sound quality should also be minimal.

Having a DAC(topping d90 or similar) do that is not ideal since i want to have completely independent volume controls for my speakers and headphones.
I am in Europe.

 

[staticV3]

The Audiophonics AP310-PREAMP and Topping L70 are the cheapest products that I could find.

 

[vddobrev]

I am thinking upgrading my Speaker amplifier setup.
Currently i use Objective2+ODAC with it's Line-Out to a Pioneer receiver, which feeds my 4ohm speakers.
The line-out is always at 100% volume regardless of the HP amp settings.
The Volume control is done by the receiver and that is how i like it.
With the thinking to the future i want to build something that will last me the next 10 years, as the current system did.
I've been looking at many power amplifiers that have been reviewed that have cutting edge performance, like Topping LA90, NC or Purifi based amps like HPA-S400ET.
The main issue with these kinds of amps is that they do not have remote control for volume/power.
So the standard output from a DAC will blow up my speakers unless i precisely control the volume from my PC(which i try to avoid).

Are there any relatively cheap devices that could control(attenuate) an XLR or RCA signal with a remote control, and a cherry on top would be a Remote trigger functionality to turn on/off the Power amps?

The control requirements are simple:
Power on/off
Mute(nice to have)
Volume Up/Down.

The impact on sound quality should also be minimal.

Having a DAC(topping d90 or similar) do that is not ideal since i want to have completely independent volume controls for my speakers and headphones.
I am in Europe.

Your Pioneer receiver is both a preamp and an amp.
You have two options:
1. Preamp and amp separates, i.e. two devices.
2. An integrated amp, which also includes a preamp, i.e. one device.

 

[Vincent Kars]

The main issue with these kinds of amps is that they do not have remote control for volume/power.

Indeed, almost every power amp runs at the fixed gain.
Source selection, tone control, volume control and headphone out are the task of a pre-amp.
Today what we call a DAC is often simply a pre-amp with digital inputs.
You might decide to combine one with a power amp.
Examples

RME ADI-2 FS Version 2 DAC and Headphone Amp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the updated version 2 of the RME ADI-2 FS DAC and headphone amplifier. It was kindly sent to me by the company. The cost us US $1,149. The ADI-2 looks very nice in black with a bright, super responsive display (doesn't come out as well in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SMSL M500 MKII Review (DAC & HP Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL M500 MKII DAC and Headphone Amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $440. I really like the look of the new SMSL UI. It is more modern and nicer to look at. I am surprised though that they still show the input data type in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

etc.

 

[Wolfram98]

The Audiophonics AP310-PREAMP and Topping L70 are the cheapest products that I could find.

the AP 310 costing ~350Eur, and Topping Pre90 ~600Eur, is in my opinion too much for a job of a "potentiometer".
For the same price i can get a second DAC that will have remote control and be just for speakers, with a bit of a headache to setup my PC to output to both DAC's at the same time. While having the benefit of having separate EQ's for headphones and Speakers(room correction etc.)

Indeed, almost every power amp runs at the fixed gain.
Source selection, tone control, volume control and headphone out are the task of a pre-amp.
Today what we call a DAC is often simply a pre-amp with digital inputs.
You might decide to combine one with a power amp.
Examples

RME ADI-2 FS Version 2 DAC and Headphone Amp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the updated version 2 of the RME ADI-2 FS DAC and headphone amplifier. It was kindly sent to me by the company. The cost us US $1,149. The ADI-2 looks very nice in black with a bright, super responsive display (doesn't come out as well in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SMSL M500 MKII Review (DAC & HP Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL M500 MKII DAC and Headphone Amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $440. I really like the look of the new SMSL UI. It is more modern and nicer to look at. I am surprised though that they still show the input data type in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

etc.

These are all DAC+HeadPhone amp's, which i dont need since my setup will transition to probably Topping D90 and A90 Discrete or RME-ADI in the near future. Thats why im interested in a device that would sit between the D90 and a "LA90" to control volume.

 

[staticV3]

the AP 310 costing ~350Eur, and Topping Pre90 ~600Eur

Pre90? The L70 was the one I mentioned which costs 280€.

In any case, about 300€ seems to be what you have to play for a standalone differential Preamp with 12V Trigger, Volume display, and remote-controlled resistor ladder attenuator.

"Potentiometers" these are not.

 

[Mr_RGB]

Fosi P4 preamp has remote, three inputs (RCA), tone controls, no 12v trigger.

 

[Wolfram98]

Pre90? The L70 was the one I mentioned which costs 280€.

In any case, about 300€ seems to be what you have to play for a standalone differential Preamp with 12V Trigger, Volume display, and remote-controlled resistor ladder attenuator.

"Potentiometers" these are not.

The L70 is useless to me since i only need a pre amp and not a HP amp. Or is using the HP amp as a pre amp viable?

Fosi P4 preamp has remote, three inputs (RCA), tone controls, no 12v trigger.

The device looks good, but it being only RCA and no remote trigger limits its forward compatibility with higher end downstream systems.


I guess the only viable option is Audiophonics AP310-PREAMP. But there being no cheaper option with worse performance is unfortunate for me.

 

[staticV3]

The L70 is useless to me since i only need a pre amp and not a HP amp. Or is using the HP amp as a pre amp viable?

The L70 is both a Pre and Headphone Amp.

You can use the Preamp part (Line in->Pre out) without ever touching the internal Headphone Amp and it won't interfere in any way.

 

[DVDdoug]

What's wrong with your receiver? What's wrong with buying another receiver (or AVR)? You get a lot for your money with a receiver. They are mass-produced and sold into a competitive market.

 

[Wolfram98]

What's wrong with your receiver? What's wrong with buying another receiver (or AVR)? You get a lot for your money with a receiver. They are mass-produced and sold into a competitive market.

For 600$ i can get cream of the crop power amps @~100w(stereo), or absolutely middling performance with AVR's.
From Amirm's reviews the AVR's are still barely breaking the 90db sinad barrier, vs 110-120db of Power amps.

 

[JeremyFife]

It's a trade off between measurement excellence and features. Have a serious think about which is more important - and remember that you probably can't hear the difference anyway.

I can't say what is more important to you.

For what it's worth - that Fosi P4 looks like a good option - deal with the lack of balanced connections (which you can't hear unless you have ground loops) later if you upgrade again.

 

[Wolfram98]

It's a trade off between measurement excellence and features. Have a serious think about which is more important - and remember that you probably can't hear the difference anyway.

I can't say what is more important to you.

For what it's worth - that Fosi P4 looks like a good option - deal with the lack of balanced connections (which you can't hear unless you have ground loops) later if you upgrade again.

There is no data on how much does the LA90D, or B200 consumes power when idling, so a safe bet with remote triggering to ensure that the Amp is only powered when it needs to.
Also no information in the review of Fosi P4 if there are audible cracks when it is turned on/off, like the power amps have.

My current receiver has a quirk of loading the line-in weirdly from my Objective2+ODAC combo. If the receiver's off, the headphone output sometimes sounds crackly in certain frequencies.

 

[Roland68]

Having a DAC(topping d90 or similar) do that is not ideal since i want to have completely independent volume controls for my speakers and headphones.
I am in Europe.

May I ask why this is necessary?
Are speakers and headphones used simultaneously?

 

[Wolfram98]

May I ask why this is necessary?
Are speakers and headphones used simultaneously?

In the last 10 years i touched the volume knob on my HP amp less than 5 times.
The speakers volume gets changed hourly.

My current system works independently and i like that.

 

[antcollinet]

Put simply, the going rate for a device with all the functionality you want is around £$300.

If that is too much for you, then you need a different approach.

Not changing your amp at all is the first different approach you should consider.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I am thinking upgrading my Speaker amplifier setup.
Currently i use Objective2+ODAC with it's Line-Out to a Pioneer receiver, which feeds my 4ohm speakers.
The line-out is always at 100% volume regardless of the HP amp settings.
The Volume control is done by the receiver and that is how i like it.

Sounds like you already have the functionality you're after -aside from that crackling noise you mentioned, which I can’t really pinpoint the cause of.

Are there any relatively cheap devices that could control(attenuate) an XLR or RCA signal with a remote control, and a cherry on top would be a Remote trigger functionality to turn on/off the Power amps?

The control requirements are simple:
Power on/off
Mute(nice to have)
Volume Up/Down.

Have you considered the Wiim Pro Plus? It looks like it does exactly what you’re looking for. -And a lot more..
It also comes with a Bluetooth remote so you can hide it.

It’s currently priced at $219 on Amazon.

WiiM Pro Plus Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Pro Plus streamer, DAC and preamplifier with Bluetooth support. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $219. While the case is plastic, it still "looks the part" as the Brits would say relative to other more famous brands of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Roland68]

In the last 10 years i touched the volume knob on my HP amp less than 5 times.
The speakers volume gets changed hourly.

My current system works independently and i like that.

But that's easy.
The Topping L70 would be the right device. The L70 has two storable presets that can be switched between using the remote control, C1 and C2.
This stores and switches all settings: volume, gain, inputs, and outputs. One reason why the L70 has been on my desk for a while.

 

[Wolfram98]

Sounds like you already have the functionality you're after -aside from that crackling noise you mentioned, which I can’t really pinpoint the cause of.



Have you considered the Wiim Pro Plus? It looks like it does exactly what you’re looking for. -And a lot more..
It also comes with a Bluetooth remote so you can hide it.

It’s currently priced at $219 on Amazon.

WiiM Pro Plus Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Pro Plus streamer, DAC and preamplifier with Bluetooth support. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $219. While the case is plastic, it still "looks the part" as the Brits would say relative to other more famous brands of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

In that specific case the aforementioned Fosi P4 preamp does what i need'ish, without the Remote triggering.

But that's easy.
The Topping L70 would be the right device. The L70 has two storable presets that can be switched between using the remote control, C1 and C2.
This stores and switches all settings: volume, gain, inputs, and outputs. One reason why the L70 has been on my desk for a while.

For an HP DAC i want to have cream of the crop, a D90+A90 Discrete or RME adi 2 for Headphone side of operation.
Yes the L70 is ~70eur cheaper than the AP310 preamp, but i feel that device that was built for my specific purpose would fare better than a device whose functionality i need is only secondary to it's main design.


After thinking on it for a while, no matter which kind of Speakers(Powered or not) i choose to go with in the future, it will still need separate preamp'ing, so the Audiophonics solution seems OK for the foreseeable future, too bad it was not tested to see if it is transparent or not.

~10years ago i decided to go from motherboard sound to a "proper" dac (Objective2+ODAC) and Headphones(Beyerdynamic DT880 250ohm) in total for ~500eur(at the time), and i consider that gamble to have paid off immensely, so i am thinking of doing another gamble with further "audiophile" equipment to serve me another 10 years..

 

[Roland68]

IFor an HP DAC i want to have cream of the crop, a D90+A90 Discrete or RME adi 2 for Headphone side of operation.
Yes the L70 is ~70eur cheaper than the AP310 preamp, but i feel that device that was built for my specific purpose would fare better than a device whose functionality i need is only secondary to it's main design.


After thinking on it for a while, no matter which kind of Speakers(Powered or not) i choose to go with in the future, it will still need separate preamp'ing, so the Audiophonics solution seems OK for the foreseeable future, too bad it was not tested to see if it is transparent or not.

~10years ago i decided to go from motherboard sound to a "proper" dac (Objective2+ODAC) and Headphones(Beyerdynamic DT880 250ohm) in total for ~500eur(at the time), and i consider that gamble to have paid off immensely, so i am thinking of doing another gamble with further "audiophile" equipment to serve me another 10 years..

I don't want to shatter your illusions, but I hadn't seen the inside of the AP310 yet and I had to laugh when I saw the picture of the circuit board on Audiophonics.
If you take a look at the boards of devices from the two major Chinese manufacturers, you'll notice a very strong similarity in terms of layout, circuitry, components, materials, etc. So the board probably comes from one of these manufacturers, which wouldn't be unusual.

The L70 is very similar to the AP310 in terms of construction. In both devices, the balanced inputs are debalanced, and then the volume is adjusted. In the AP310, this is done via the two-channel MUSES72320 chip, while in the L70, this is done via the relay-based volume control. This probably makes no difference, although I personally prefer the relay-based volume control, as the Muse chip could introduce noise.
After the volume adjustment, if the balanced output is used, the signal is rebalanced on both devices. I don't think there's any difference in sound between the L70 and the AP310. The L70 has proven to be absolutely transparent in testing (all measurements in the top range) and in use by many users. The AP310 could only be better or have an advantage if the L70 had limitations.

As you can see from this example, a balanced HPA, like the L70, is usually a completely normal preamplifier with an additional headphone amp attached to one of the outputs, nothing else. Essentially, the design is no different from other preamplifiers, whether they cost €500 or €30,000.
But you also get an excellent HPA for the price.

As a preamplifier, the AP310 looks to me to be a well thought-out and well-built device with a very good price/performance ratio. A review by Amir would be interesting.
All of this is just for information, also for other users who read this.