Older Amplifiers Better?

[Old_School_Brad]

Good morning. Give me some advice. After 23 years, perhaps my Electrocompaniet ECI 2 needs an overhaul, which obviously has a cost. Or do I buy a new amplifier? Thanks

Your amplifier is well-built, high-quality, and designed with high current capability, low noise, and minimal distortion. If it's functioning properly, I see no reason to replace it. And even if it was at fault, it can probably be repaired by less than a comparable substitute would cost.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Good morning. Give me some advice. After 23 years, perhaps my Electrocompaniet ECI 2 needs an overhaul, which obviously has a cost. Or do I buy a new amplifier? Thanks

If it is working , just keep using it. That is what I will do with my amplification.

 

[EJ3]

FWIW my comments were more oriented to local places vs. where the additional shipping issues come into play. It's just a narrowing of choices in this regard, let alone actual competence.

Peter Williams at Quirk Audio is in Berkley, Calif, so shipping from your location (PNW is what I got from looking at you're avatar) shouldn't be too bad. Check with different carriers, though. I have had the best experiences with the USPS (and value), though. I do not know your options there, having never been there (I have passed through the international airport in Seattle more times than I would like to have, though [I prefer traveling by ship, when I can]).
And if you want it packed correctly, do it yourself.
Quirk audio has always sent my stuff packed back exactly how I packed it, with the exact same packing materials.
That may depend on many factors as to whether or not you have the same experience on that front.
Good luck.
I now have to go align my newest vehicle, a 2004 Chevrolet SS Extended cab Silverado that I just replaced the control arm on.

 

[Cbdb2]

people turned a simple description into some kind of crazy, over the top money sucking marketing term.

"Audio" capacitor (inductors, fuses,etc) describes nothing, has never meant anything. If you want a cap that lasts longer, use the proper type, get one from any reputable manufacturer and specify a long life, and high temp. and make sure the ripple current and ESR are properly specified.

 

[Cbdb2]

Sometimes there are differences, and sometimes there aren't. Sometimes the changes are beneficial, and sometimes they aren't.

That said, if you're considering resale value versus personal use, it's generally a good idea to opt for "audio grade" components if you plan to sell.

Spoiler: Nichicon Cap. comparison

View attachment 426344

I see small differences in tangent of loss, what else is better with audio grade? And it looks like the audio grade only last 1/2 as long as general purpose, so why do I want these?

 

[Chrispy]

Peter Williams at Quirk Audio is in Berkley, Calif, so shipping from your location (PNW is what I got from looking at you're avatar) shouldn't be too bad. Check with different carriers, though. I have had the best experiences with the USPS (and value), though. I do not know your options there, having never been there (I have passed through the international airport in Seattle more times than I would like to have, though [I prefer traveling by ship, when I can]).
And if you want it packed correctly, do it yourself.
Quirk audio has always sent my stuff packed back exactly how I packed it, with the exact same packing materials.
That may depend on many factors as to whether or not you have the same experience on that front.
Good luck.
I now have to go align my newest vehicle, a 2004 Chevrolet SS Extended cab Silverado that I just replaced the control arm on.

I prefer to drop off/pick up myself rather than via a freight service; altho am quite capable of packing goods as well. I spent my career in logistics. I used to live in the bay area, but have closer choices in the Portland/Vancouver areas. Just a longish drive (shorter than Berkeley tho).

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I see small differences in tangent of loss, what else is better with audio grade? And it looks like the audio grade only last 1/2 as long as general purpose, so why do I want these?

You probably don’t, unless you want to highlight "audio-grade" capacitors as a selling point for a potential buyer -I do think that can add perceived value in the market.

 

[EJ3]

I see small differences in tangent of loss, what else is better with audio grade? And it looks like the audio grade only last 1/2 as long as general purpose, so why do I want these?

As I said but you apparently did not comprehend, it just meant something different than crpy, bottom of the barrel caps.
Then, later, it meant something else.

 

[EJ3]

I prefer to drop off/pick up myself rather than via a freight service; altho am quite capable of packing goods as well. I spent my career in logistics. I used to live in the bay area, but have closer choices in the Portland/Vancouver areas. Just a longish drive (shorter than Berkeley tho).

I prefer to drop off/pick up myself rather than via a freight service: ME too!
When I put out info, it is for everyone. Many do not know (me too). And come here to get educated.
If it doesn't pertain to you, then please don't try to shoot the messenger. Just realize that there are others that maybe new here or just have been around but may not have some information that they may need later). So I put out more info than would be necessary if I knew you personally.
So that others would know (or be reminded of something that they once knew).
Like me, I went through COVID twice & there is a lot of stuff buried in my brain.
That pushes it to the front when someone talks about it (& I think: "Oh, yeah, I knew about that once before").
If I were to talk about something with you, that I felt only pertained to you & me, I would PM you.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

"Audio" capacitor (inductors, fuses,etc) describes nothing, has never meant anything. If you want a cap that lasts longer, use the proper type, get one from any reputable manufacturer and specify a long life, and high temp. and make sure the ripple current and ESR are properly specified.

In other words, not like the cheap ones that were used in the NAD 370?

I'm currently facing the dilemma of whether to keep my NAD 370 or sell it as we are in the process of moving, and not sure it is still worth keeping in storage.

 

[EJ3]

In other words, not like the cheap ones that were used in the NAD 370?

I'm currently facing the dilemma of whether to keep my NAD 370 or sell it as we are in the process of moving, and not sure it is still worth keeping in storage.

I know nothing about that unit.
Then again, it's how old? And when was it last serviced? And where it was made is important as to the quality & longevity of the components inside.
Ebay:

Stereo Amplifier NAD C370 Repair KIT - all capacitors + BIG FILTER CAPACITORS​

Vintage Audio Poland

• (809)
• 99.7% positive
• Seller's other itemsSeller's other items
• Contact seller

US $156.00

 

[EJ3]

@EJ3 That NAD 2200 seems to be a top performer of I understand the above correctly.
Hasn’t NAD produced something better (our equivalent) over the years?

I don't know. I haven't ever felt that I need more than what I have.

 

[EJ3]

@EJ3 That NAD 2200 seems to be a top performer of I understand the above correctly.
Hasn’t NAD produced something better (our equivalent) over the years?

There are some other things from NAD that may as good or better from a bit later that era: Perhaps the 1996:

NAD 208 THX Power Amplifier; Two channel power amplifier, power output 250 w rms/ch into 8 Ohms; Frequency response 20 Hz - 20 kHz + 0.3 dB; THD at rated output < 0.03%; Input impedance 20 KOhm; Slew rate >100 v/microsec; Damping factor >200; Size 6 3/4"H x 19"W x 14 1/2"D; Weight 40 pounds; $1,649; UK: Phone 011-44-181-349-4034; Fax 011-44-181-343-3871; USA: NAD Electronics USA, 89 Doug Brown Way, Holliston, Massachusetts 01746; Phone 800-356-9470; Fax 508-429-2426.

The typical home theater amplifier these days has bipolar output devices. This results in the ability to deliver high current, which is a nice advantage for today's very demanding movie sound tracks. So, it is a bit unusual to see a MOSFET power amplifier designed for home theater, especially one that is THX certified. The NAD 208 is just that. It uses 8 MOSFETs per channel, with a rail of 87 volts (peak to peak) to deliver 250 watts rms/ch into 8 Ohms. However, there are an additional 6 MOSFETs per channel for use during high level transient periods, i.e., short duration. The rail switches to 120 volts peak-to-peak during these periods, and the amp can deliver 600 watts rms/ch into 8 Ohms, 750 w rms/ch into 4 Ohms, and 900 w rms/ch into 2 Ohms. The 208 is one of very few MOSFET power amps rated into 2 Ohms. This takes a big power supply, and the 208 utilizes 100,000 uF of capacitance, arranged in a bank of small capacitors rather than two large ones, and a 1.8 KVa toroidal transformer. The bank of capacitors gives a lower equivalent series resistance and equivalent series inductance, as well as keeping the recovery period down. The design also makes the amplifier very fast, with a slew rate of better than 100 v/microsec.

 

[EJ3]

Whats the difference between "audio grade" and normal electrolytics?

QUALITY, not sound (as in durability, longevity, doesn't age badly, you know, so it doesn't die soon).

 

[EJ3]

I prefer to drop off/pick up myself rather than via a freight service; altho am quite capable of packing goods as well. I spent my career in logistics. I used to live in the bay area, but have closer choices in the Portland/Vancouver areas. Just a longish drive (shorter than Berkeley tho).

You asked who. Then you say you have people that can do it closer. There is a difference between a rebuild and a full refurbishment with updates (even without changing the design of the circuits). Only someone with great experience with certain products will have the knowledge to do a refurbishment with updates (because they have a good idea of what will go bad next and what new technology in parts are helpful).
With a car engine, a rebuild makes it like it was coming from the factory but using all the old parts that where within spec (regardless if their are better quality parts available that are better suited for the long term). A refurbishment replaces those parts also, if there is a newer, better part available. Of course, the newer part, may in fact be worse (and you may be best of leaving the old part in place than replacing it). That is something that a rebuilder is not so likely to know. And why you go to folks that specialize in the product that you are dealing with.
I know, for instance, that a certain transmission that I have in one of my vehicles typically fails between 200K & 240K miles, no matter how good you take care of it. (but the engine in it typically goes 300K-400K depending on use). So, when I refurbish the transmission (not rebuild as it was), I will replace the failure prone parts with a better quality part, perhaps one that dissipates heat better, some parts that identical in size & function but made out of a different material but not the original spec part that came inside the transmission. And, due to that (if I were selling this transmission to a customer) it would have a 3 year, 36,000 mile warranty, because I know that is the warranty that the factory gave them new and I have built one better than they originally were. Naturally, it would cost more that another new factory transmission because it is vastly better than a new one.
My motto is that: you may or may not get what you pay for but you will likely not get better than you paid for. Adjust you budget accordingly.

 

[Chrispy]

You asked who. Then you say you have people that can do it closer. There is a difference between a rebuild and a full refurbishment with updates (even without changing the design of the circuits). Only someone with great experience with certain products will have the knowledge to do a refurbishment with updates (because they have a good idea of what will go bad next and what new technology in parts are helpful).
With a car engine, a rebuild makes it like it was coming from the factory but using all the old parts that where within spec (regardless if their are better quality parts available that are better suited for the long term). A refurbishment replaces those parts also, if there is a newer, better part available. Of course, the newer part, may in fact be worse (and you may be best of leaving the old part in place than replacing it). That is something that a rebuilder is not so likely to know. And why you go to folks that specialize in the product that you are dealing with.
I know, for instance, that a certain transmission that I have in one of my vehicles typically fails between 200K & 240K miles, no matter how good you take care of it. (but the engine in it typically goes 300K-400K depending on use). So, when I refurbish the transmission (not rebuild as it was), I will replace the failure prone parts with a better quality part, perhaps one that dissipates heat better, some parts that identical in size & function but made out of a different material but not the original spec part that came inside the transmission. And, due to that (if I were selling this transmission to a customer) it would have a 3 year, 36,000 mile warranty, because I know that is the warranty that the factory gave them new and I have built one better than they originally were. Naturally, it would cost more that another new factory transmission because it is vastly better than a new one.
My motto is that: you may or may not get what you pay for but you will likely not get better than you paid for. Adjust you budget accordingly.

Closer to a Carver specialist particularly because now I live in Oregon. I was referring to being closer to the Carver repair shop in Vancouver, WA. There's also a well-regarded Carver specialist in Michigan.

 

[EJ3]

Closer to a Carver specialist particularly because now I live in Oregon. I was referring to being closer to the Carver repair shop in Vancouver, WA. There's also a well-regarded Carver specialist in Michigan.

Closer to a Carver specialist particularly because now I live in Oregon. I was referring to being closer to the Carver repair shop in Vancouver, WA. There's also a well-regarded Carver specialist in Michigan.

Yes, someone who specializes in great audio gear & not just a run of the mill general electronics repair tech. Our audio gear (while it can technically be made to work by a generalist repair tech), really need a specialist in this type of gear with the capability of doing measurements that not all electronic repair techs have the test equipment to do. Sounds like you know of some good ones for our type of needs.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

QUALITY, not sound (as in durability, longevity, doesn't age badly, you know, so it doesn't die soon).

While it’s true that low-quality capacitors are out there (NAD, I’m looking at you!), “audio grade” capacitors aren’t inherently better than good industrial-grade ones in terms of longevity and durability.

I currently have a NAD C272 on hand that I’m considering doing a full recap on. From what I can tell, it’s one of the later versions where NAD addressed many of the issues that plagued this model and the integrated C372. All the boards are marked version 5.0, it lacks the commonly burned resistor, and it uses 105 °C main filter caps. No bulging or leaking, but... it’s still the same questionable brand.

Hmm.

 

[EJ3]

While it’s true that low-quality capacitors are out there (NAD, I’m looking at you!), “audio grade” capacitors aren’t inherently better than good industrial-grade ones in terms of longevity and durability.

I currently have a NAD C272 on hand that I’m considering doing a full recap on. From what I can tell, it’s one of the later versions where NAD addressed many of the issues that plagued this model and the integrated C372. All the boards are marked version 5.0, it lacks the commonly burned resistor, and it uses 105 °C main filter caps. No bulging or leaking, but... it’s still the same questionable brand.

Hmm.

The NAD's built in England, Japan did not seem to have much trouble with caps. S. Korea a bit more trouble (but still usually reparable). But those built in other places from the late 80's onward met the specs for a short period of time before devolved into into catastrophic (non reparable) failure.
So, to a great extent, it was dependent upon where it was originally manufactured.

 

[Mart68]

The NAD's built in England, Japan did not seem to have much trouble with caps. S. Korea a bit more trouble (but still usually reparable). But those built in other places from the late 80's onward met the specs for a short period of time before devolved into into catastrophic (non reparable) failure.
So, to a great extent, it was dependent upon where it was originally manufactured.

where they ever built in the UK? I think they were always made by an OEM in Taiwan, up to the 1990s at least. Pretty sure it was never Japan.