Do Audiophile Network Switches Make a Difference (video)?

[delta76]

Hi,

This discussion does not seem to be new, does it ?

From what I can tell, people at Alpha Audio did measurements.
And those measurements show a difference between switches.
And if that is true (I will not pay for the results) then I think NO ONE on this site giving Amirm credit for his measurements can question those results.
After all if it is measured the evidence are the numbers and nothing else.

BUT that is not the discussion is it ?
The discussion is totally elsewhere : if there are MEASURED differences, can those MEASURED differences actually BE HEARD ?

And this is where discussion will never end.

Here's what a discussion might be :
"I hear a difference.
- That is not possible.
- Why ?
- Because we made measures and there are no differences.
- OK. But here are the numbers and they show a difference.
- Oh, really. Then that means those tests have not been made properly.
- Hum. Here are the conditions of the test. And numbers are numbers are they not.
- Yes. But those differences can not be heard.
- But I think I hear them.
- That is what you think.
- But I've done blind tests that tend to prove that there is an audible difference.
- Have you done a real blind test with A/B level matching ?
- Yes.
- That is not possible".

So my problem is quite simple : I can understand almost everything.
I can understand people who sincerely think they can hear a difference.
I can understand people that buy their stuff only on proven and measured data.

What I can't admit though is bad faith.
And this is where the discussion leads :
- people convinced that they hear a difference just to claim there is one when indeed they hear none ;
- people saying they only believe in numbers and when numbers are given that hurt their beliefs, saying those are biased.
- people saying they only believe in numbers and who, if someone comes with a claim that numbers do not tell the whole story, reply that the test has not been made proprerly and ask for "subjective" test conditions that are simply impossible to achieve... which is of course super convenient for never having to change your own beliefs.

Before I came to this site, I was convinced that I was hearing huge differences between power supplies, cables, DAC's...
What I learned here is to try to listen in the best good faith.
Do I really hear a difference ?
And I must say that asking myself that only question made me save a lot of money...
Because most of the time I can't hear any difference.
Even if I would like to hear one to justify the buying of a device that looks good

Like : right now I am listening to music on a rig that costed me EXACTLY 349$.
I named a Raspberry Pi4 (249$) + AK4493 powered DAC that includes a small headphone jack (100$).
The thing plays music from a mini-PC running Linux Arch with an Emby server running on it.
The mini-PC costed 240€. The most money I spend was for... storage
AND of course for the headphone : a Dan Clark Aeon that I bought after reading the reviews on this site... And I DO NOT REGRET buying it.

Is there a difference between that rig and my seprarated streamer + my separated DAC + my separated headphone amp ? (do I have to tell that is costs A LOT MORE ?)
If I push volume to the max, yes... The combo can play a lot louder.
But sticking at the volumes that I listen to, I would be in serious difficulty to tell them apart...

What I also learned from this site is that people should not tell that a device is better than the other.
But that, what they HEAR (or think they hear, I do not care) they simply like that better.
And that is acceptable.

And the only thing that I think is acceptable is that no one tries to force his views on anyone else.
Tolerance may be what we need more in these days and age.
Let's start here.
And if people are convinced that they enjoy their music more when it's played over a 3k€ network switch (I personnaly have a Linksys that I bought for 28€ on Amazon) then let them believe it.
And if you have a chance to give their system a listen, then just go there and listen in all good faith and ask your self if you are hearing a difference. Maybe you'll be surprised...

And when that is all done, just sit back, listen to your music and enjoy it.
Over a system that measures superbly good.
Over a system that looks nice.
Over a system that costs a fortune.

As long as you really enjoy it and do not try to convince anyone that your system is better than his, that's OK and you will be the happiest man on earth.
The one who enjoys music whereever it comes from.
After all, that is all sound is about in the end, is it not ?

Regards.

It is one thing to have a fancy instrument, it is another thing to use it properly, then another thing to measure what matter. That set people like Amir or Eric apart.

Alpha Audio measured jitters in signal from those switches, and those are sub microseconds, like 0.03 microseconds. Those are completely never seen by the streaming players (which will buffer the content), and completely unheard by the human.

 

[PenguinMusic]

It is one thing to have a fancy instrument, it is another thing to use it properly, then another thing to measure what matter. That set people like Amir or Eric apart.

Alpha Audio measured jitters in signal from those switches, and those are sub microseconds, like 0.03 microseconds. Those are completely never seen by the streaming players (which will buffer the content), and completely unheard by the human.

Hi,

Sure.

Then again, it seems I have not been clear enough in my previous post that you're quoting.

Because what you're saying is :
" There are differences in measures.
- Your tests has not been done properly.
- Here is how it has been performed...
- OK, it's been done properly, but differences are really small.
- But you admit there are differences ?
- Maybe.
- So that is evidence is it not ?
- No because that is beyond threshold of hearing. .
- Still there is a measured difference so that can have an impact.
- No, because what you measured is irrelevant as it does not matter".

Evidence will never be evidence under these circumstances.
Pointless discussion.
Again.

Regards.

 

[delta76]

Hi,

Sure.

Then again, it seems I have not been clear enough in my previous post that you're quoting.

Because what you're saying is :
" There are differences in measures.
- Your tests has not been done properly.
- Here is how it has been performed...
- OK, it's been done properly, but differences are really small.
- But you admit there are differences ?
- Maybe.
- So that is evidence is it not ?
- No because that is beyond threshold of hearing. .
- Still there is a measured difference so that can have an impact.
- No, because what you measured is irrelevant as it does not matter".

Evidence will never be evidence under these circumstances.
Pointless discussion.
Again.

Regards.

No, we (or at least me and some other fellow members) have been consistent from the beginning - the blind testing is flawed (not true blind testing), and the measurements measure things that do not matter. Which is why I went as far as called this pseudo science. They appear to do it scientifically, but with some major flaws which would render the conclusions meaningless.

science is about methodology as much as the results. if your methodology is not accepted as accurate/fair, your result is invalid.

 

[delta76]

I'm glad our host doesn't take this approach. Have you noticed that there are no advertisements, and no sections of the site hidden behind any kind of paywall?



There is no one here that has been chatting with you who only believes in measurements. What most of us 'believe in' is that which is backed by evidence. Evidence has a higher threshold than anecdote, but unfortunately takes a lot more effort to create and provide. One of the problems is that most of us, including reviewers tend to underestimate how much we are influenced by our very natural human biases. Without implementing some simple to ask for but harder to provide controls the results are going to be ignored by those looking for actual evidence, and not another flawed comparison presented as if it's good enough, and it's the best we can do, and at least we tried.

I applaud anyone who wants to start trying to dig through the bullshit that covers the hi-end audio propaganda machine, but doing it with flawed methodology really doesn't do anything but add to the confusion and mess already out there.

From your responses, you seem like a sincere person who wants to produce material that is meaningful, and helpful to those looking to get to where there might actually be evidence, vs another site telling another version of the same old story, by folks who are well meaning but underprepared for the task at hand.

How about a video showing how you learned from feedback given after your first video to tighten things up to make sure you weren't able to fool yourself, and see what your results might be. I can see a whole set of videos, which would get a lot of links here, of properly done testing using proper double blind, level matched protocols. There are quite a few choices beyond AB/X, and results and videos of the different tests would be awesome to see done by someone. You wouldn't even need any more equipment...a simple multimeter should be all the test gear you need.

sadly, you were probably giving them too much benefit of the doubt

Nobody said they should not do the test, they are welcome to do, but only with a proper setup and properly researched method. instead they were, most likely intentionally, looking into ways to confirm their biases.

 

[Geert]

sadly, you were probably giving them too much benefit of the doubt

Next level Dunning–Kruger effect.

 

[fpitas]

No one here has considered the family and friends of the network switch manufacturers, who benefit tremendously from the cash flow. Do network switches make a difference? Yes, to them! Sometimes we're very shallow at ASR and don't consider the economic needs of audio entrepreneurs.

 

[voodooless]

Maybe @amirm should do a counter video

 

[JustJones]

Of every Audiophoolery notion out there the claim that properly working network switches affect you getting those veils lifted so you need our special "audiophile switch" has to be one of the Audiophooleriest. < Perfectly cromulent word.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Hi,

It seems that some manufacturers can indeed produce devices that are engineered in the most horrible manner.

Here's my experience :
I have a Raspberry Pi4 fitteds with a Allo Boss DAC.
The DAC is connected to a NuForcem HA-200 Headphone amp.

The pi4 is networked with a Linksys Router.

Recently I noticed a really loud "hum" when amp is pushed to the max.
I thought that this was totally abnormal.
So I disconnected everything... and as soon as Network cable is unplugged => dead silent.

Tried different cables => same result.

Tried to hook the pi4 to a Linksys Cisco 24 Ethernet switch => dead silent.
So from my experience a network switrch can make a diference...

PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG : i am not saying you should spend that much money in a switch.
I got the Cisco 24 Ports switch for 80€ used.
But it looks like a switch can indeed be badly engeneered :-(
Even when coming from a reputed brand like Linksys...

But that is weird indeed.

 

[fpitas]

Sounds like a mains ground loop issue. Maybe the Cisco switch has better isolation.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Sounds like a mains ground loop issue. Maybe the Cisco switch has better isolation.

Hi,

I also have a Zyxel that I bought new on Amazon for about 25€.

Not "dead silent" as the Cisco but almost no backgrouind noise...
Looks like the Linksys has a problem somewhere.

But that confirms that there can be poorly engeneered switches for "music".
This switch is used for networking with no problems whatsoever.
Again, that does not mean that I will EVER spend more than 30 or 50 bucks for a switch

But may use the Cisco from now on

 

[fpitas]

Hi,

I also have a Zyxel that I bought new on Amazon for about 25€.

Not "dead silent" as the Cisco but almost no backgrouind noise...
Looks like the Linksys has a problem somewhere.

But that confirms that there can be poorly engeneered switches for "music".
This switch is used for networking with no problems whatsoever.
Again, that does not mean that I will EVER spend more than 30 or 50 bucks for a switch

But may use the Cisco from now on

Yes, people here have discussed mains noise issues. I think there are isolators that can address the issue, but that's outside my knowledge. In any event, the snake oil switches generally claim all sorts of unbelievable things about jitter and internet noise, not mains isolation. Perhaps they should concentrate on boring old ground isolation.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Yes, people here have discussed mains noise issues. I think there are isolators that can address the issue, but that's outside my knowledge. In any event, the snake oil switches generally claim all sorts of unbelievable things about jitter and internet noise, not mains isolation. Perhaps they should concentrate on boring old ground isolation.

Hi,

Investigating a little further, it seems the problem is not theswitch but that other devices are connected to it at the same time.
I have tried to hook everything up to the Cisco and "Hum" again.

So let's see what's the cause

Well, my advice to audiophiles would then be :
- use your daily switch and check if does not cause some "mains loop". If it does not stick to that ;
- if there is some noise when amp is pushed to max, then just use another switch where you'll only hook the media player.

Maybe some hundreds dollars saved ?
At least this is what I have done and that eliminated the background noise and "hiss" I was clearly hearing.

 

[SSS]

Hi,

It seems that some manufacturers can indeed produce devices that are engineered in the most horrible manner.

Here's my experience :
I have a Raspberry Pi4 fitteds with a Allo Boss DAC.
The DAC is connected to a NuForcem HA-200 Headphone amp.

The pi4 is networked with a Linksys Router.

Recently I noticed a really loud "hum" when amp is pushed to the max.
I thought that this was totally abnormal.
So I disconnected everything... and as soon as Network cable is unplugged => dead silent.

Tried different cables => same result.

Tried to hook the pi4 to a Linksys Cisco 24 Ethernet switch => dead silent.
So from my experience a network switrch can make a diference...

PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG : i am not saying you should spend that much money in a switch.
I got the Cisco 24 Ports switch for 80€ used.
But it looks like a switch can indeed be badly engeneered :-(
Even when coming from a reputed brand like Linksys...

But that is weird indeed.

Probably the Raspberry Pi4 is not galvanically isolated from its LAN receptacle, so a ground loop is created to your analog part of the DAC.
I am not sure there exist standard regarding galvanic isolation on LAN connections? If not then the design of a network switch may be different in this issue.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Probably the Raspberry Pi4 is not galvanically isolated from its LAN receptacle, so a ground loop is created to your analog part of the DAC.
I am not sure there exist standard regarding galvanic isolation on LAN connections? If not then the design of a network switch may be different in this issue.

Hi,

If so why did it not produce this sound when connected to another switch that is not connected to other devices ?

 

[SSS]

Hi,

If so why did it not produce this sound when connected to another switch that is not connected to other devices ?

Hi, as I thought there may be network switches which have ground isolation and which may have not. If not then it depends whether the power supply is connected to ground or an other LAN cable connection provides the ground contact. If you have a resistance measurment instrument you can try to follow the ground connections.

 

[shion_ca]

This is a video summary of two tests/reviews I have done in the past on audiophile Ethernet switches. It is more more of a tutorial of the technology than what was covered in the text reviews. It is a bit long at 35 minutes so feel free to speed it up (click on the gear icon in YouTube and select the faster speed).

Hopefully it can become a reference every time this topic comes up.

Clearly Amrim has gone on record stating that after you use the silent angel, it’s lingering effects make a clear sonic improvement in even inferior switches plugged in after it!

Furthermore stating that this improvement while clearly audible is not able to be measured by our lacking means of science!

I got the gist right????

 

[antcollinet]

I got the gist right????

What the holy hell are you talking about?

 

[JustJones]

Clearly Amrim has gone on record stating that after you use the silent angel, it’s lingering effects make a clear sonic improvement in even inferior switches plugged in after it!

Furthermore stating that this improvement while clearly audible is not able to be measured by our lacking means of science!

I got the gist right????

It's Voodoo

 

[VintageFlanker]

Furthermore stating that this improvement while clearly audible is not able to be measured by our lacking means of science!

Except it is absolutely not "clearly audible". Please don't confuse actual sound with imagination.