Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

[Geert]

No, it only shows an important aspect is missing in the quote you've chosen. Another quote from te forum: "All competently designed solid-state amps sound the same when operated below clipping". And you'll also find references to measuring with a real speaker load.

 

[MarkWinston]

No, it only shows an important aspect is missing in the quote you've chosen. Another quote from te forum: "All competently designed solid-state amps sound the same when operated below clipping". And you'll also find references to measuring with a real speaker load.

I can show you quotes like 'all amps sound the same', 'all amps sound the same under clipping levels when volume matched' or whathever way its framed to mean the same is often used on this forum. Im not saying that you are claiming anything at all, Im saying that I have read statements like these all over the forum like its bible.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I can show you quotes like 'all amps sound the same'

waiting

 

[Geert]

It's not because you can find specific statements on a forum that all members believe them. Even the ones making the statement might not believe your interpretation.

 

[MarkWinston]

It's not because you can find specific statements on a forum that all members believe them. Even the ones making the statement might not believe your interpretation.

waiting

You dont even dare to make up your mind if you agree on the statement that "all amps sound the same under clipping levels when volume matched" and you want me to spoon feed you?

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I can show you quotes like 'all amps sound the same', 'all amps sound the same under clipping levels when volume matched' or whathever way its framed to mean the same is often used on this forum. Im not saying that you are claiming anything at all, Im saying that I have read statements like these all over the forum like its bible.

You are trying very hard indeed to create a straw man.
Pretty much everyone on this forum would understand that your quoted statements, if they are indeed real quotes, are shorthand for something like“All competently designed solid-state amps sound the same when operated below clipping".

You seem to be getting all worked up about a statement that I don’t think anyone actually means to say.

 

[YSC]

You dont even dare to make up your mind if you agree on the statement that "all amps sound the same under clipping levels when volume matched" and you want me to spoon feed you?

I would say you are into personal attack mode man, it’s just so annoying if all these claims when no big professional manufacturer said that it is real and makes a night and day difference, and that nothing thus far in any type of measurements be it time decay showed up reasonably differences between pre and post break in. Amirm have made various measurements to variety his claims and the break in clarinets never did some measurement to preach the truth yet keep on attacking is NOT science!

Most ppl here will actively and positively discuss and repeat measurement trials if anyone ever showed something to be detectable. One example is how Neumann KH80 where ended up being a temperature related change effect on woofer which we all learned something. Now that is definitely audible but where is the break in ones? I begged for such graphs but none showed.
What I did noticed when I tried to measurement my genelec for some dip switch settings is that when I accidentally bumped my mic a bit or set it in slightly different location for a few cm the FR did change their dip locations. But after a year of ownership where I used it daily for pc gaming and music for a few hours the FR basically kept the same

 

[MarkWinston]

You are trying very hard indeed to create a straw man.
Pretty much everyone on this forum would understand that your quoted statements, if they are indeed real quotes, are shorthand for something like“All competently designed solid-state amps sound the same when operated below clipping".

You seem to be getting all worked up about a statement that I don’t think anyone actually means to say

Notjing to do with creating a straw man. You dont shorthand something so vital. Period. And you cant blame anyone for misunderstanding such a statement written in such a poor manner. And yes, you can see statements like these around, shorthand or not. Some go as far as to say that tubes sound the same as ss. Thats another variation of the statement I quoted.

 

[Geert]

So you really believe the one making the statement “All competently designed solid-state amps sound the same when operated below clipping" believes volume matching is of no importance as he didn't mention it? Are you a lawyer?

 

[MarkWinston]

I would say you are into personal attack mode man, it’s just so annoying if all these claims when no big professional manufacturer said that it is real and makes a night and day difference, and that nothing thus far in any type of measurements be it time decay showed up reasonably differences between pre and post break in. Amirm have made various measurements to variety his claims and the break in clarinets never did some measurement to preach the truth yet keep on attacking is NOT science!

Most ppl here will actively and positively discuss and repeat measurement trials if anyone ever showed something to be detectable. One example is how Neumann KH80 where ended up being a temperature related change effect on woofer which we all learned something. Now that is definitely audible but where is the break in ones? I begged for such graphs but none showed.
What I did noticed when I tried to measurement my genelec for some dip switch settings is that when I accidentally bumped my mic a bit or set it in slightly different location for a few cm the FR did change their dip locations. But after a year of ownership where I used it daily for pc gaming and music for a few hours the FR basically kept the same

Its not a personal attack. Its just to determine which side the person is on as there are 2 or 3 school of thoughts here. After determining which side a person is on, I can then ask appropriate questions for clarification on this matter.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

After determining which side a person is on, I can then ask appropriate questions for clarification on this matter.

If you ask questions first, instead of leaping straight to “Here is a better one, ALL amplifiers sound the same. I LOLed hard”, you might discover that the thing you are getting so worked up about (if indeed anyone actually said it) isn’t really worth getting so worked up about.

 

[mansr]

Its not a personal attack. Its just to determine which side the person is on as there are 2 or 3 school of thoughts here. After determining which side a person is on, I can then ask appropriate questions for clarification on this matter.

You've made it abundantly clear which side you are on. Why don't you spare us all some grief and go play with the Head-Fi kids instead?

 

[Raindog123]

The statement most of us subscribe to is “the amps that measure similar sound the same”. To me this is a variant of the above “competently designed“ one. And yes we can discuss what “similarly measured” means - and define objective thresholds for harmonics and noise levels.

And yes from that angle, similarly measured (designed, behaving) solid-state and vacuum-tube amplifiers _will_ sound the same, while those manifesting difference eg in harmonic pattern will sound different.

 

[MarkWinston]

You've made it abundantly clear which side you are on. Why don't you spare us all some grief and go play with the Head-Fi kids instead?

'Abundantly clear'. So whats clear to you?

 

[MarkWinston]

The statement most of us subscribe to is “the amps that measure similar sound the same”. To me this is a variant of the above “competently designed“ one. And yes we can discuss what “similarly measured” mean - and define objective thresholds for harmonics and noise levels.

And yes, from that angle, similarly measured (designed, behaving) solid-state and vacuum-tube amplifiers _will_ sound the same, while those manifesting difference in harmonic pattern will sound different.

I can totally agree that all good amps (read : amps that recieve, amplify and send, nothing more nothing less) sound the same under clipping volumes when volume matched. That I have no problem with. Such amps would measure the same when measured. Identifying what a good amp is without measurements is another problem as there are way more unmeasured amos out there than ines measured. Problem I have is blanket statements such as all amps sound the same under clipping levels, whether its shorhanded or not makes no difference becuase that is what was written.

Now back to break in, there are basically 3 school of thoughs; A. Break ins dont exist B. Break ins do exist but its not audible C. Break ins are real thing. Blanket statements like "break ins do not exist", "break ins only happens because of the mind", "break ins are inaudible because FR dont show any difference" just wont work. I even suggested for speakers to be checked in the decay department, because clearly FR isnt showing any difference (or major difference) there. Things have to be checked thoroughly before spouting blanket statements like break ins are not audible just because of one FR chart. Thats all Im saying.

 

[Harmonie]

Just as well as speaker break-in; why wouldn't they break-out ?

The industrial biz relies on standards, specs and data sheet with tolerances.
If your speakers would break-in, that would clearly mean that the specs change over time and quite rapidly; exactly what makers hate because out of industrial specs.

In other words, what you claim is that every speaker (even if same model) would sound different one from another, then be careful if you swap your left and right speaker, because they wouldn't sound the same (as you have different wall interactions) , right ?

Now it's true the some materials and yarn spec's properties change even when just exposed to light.
Advanced yarns such as aramids, (you know the Yellow Kevlar woofer) tenacity weakens over time; but that (should be) negligible.

 

[MarkWinston]

So you really believe the one making the statement “All competently designed solid-state amps sound the same when operated below clipping" believes volume matching is of no importance as he didn't mention it? Are you a lawyer?

You do not shorthand or skip out important info when explaining something or yourself. Period. You better be a good lawyer to bail such people out of that situation.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Such amps would measure the same when measured.

Are you saying that there are amps that measure the same? Unless of course you are using shorthand here…

 

[MarkWinston]

Are you saying that there are amps that measure the same? Unless of course you are using shorthand here…

So there arent any amps that measure the same tonality wise?

 

[Raindog123]

In my line of business (aerospace) the material fatigue - both of metals/alloys and composites - is a very real thing. And it is dealt with constantly - both through controlled (ie measured) pre-conditioning and through continuous monitoring (again, ie through measurements - observing change in certain material properties).

As such, initially I was totally receptive to this “speakers break-in“ paradigm... However. Just like many point out, would this speaker effect be real, there would be available published measurements of such break-ins - in speaker diaphragm properties (static, eg stiffness; or dynamic, eg resonant frequencies), recorded frequency response, or properly conducted (blind) comparison listening. By all the abundant audiophile industry R&D and the associated applied academic research… However in the absence of such measurements - to my personal knowledge - I _personally_ tend to believe that such speaker break-in is negligible and imaginary.