Dirac Experts - Assistance Needed

[Dougey_Jones]

Hi Everyone,

My systems are in my signature, but this (I think) pertains just to my stereo setup and the MiniDSP Flex with Dirac. I posted about this issue on the MiniDSP forums and haven't had any replies. The basic problem is that whether I use my 0 degree or 90 degree preset (Slot 1 / 2) the center image goes from being crisp and centered to diffuse and off center. Specifically the image shifts UP so that it's about two feet above the top of my Revel F206's and a little bit to the right. If I hit the Dirac button on my remote it goes back to being centered and the vocals are basically level with the midrange/tweeter drivers.

I've tried re-taking the measurements multiple times, but the results are always the same. I've read on other forums that sometimes Dirac will introduce a slight delay but looking at the control panel it doesn't look like that's the case. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing? I'm at a loss at this point, I really like the FR adjustments that Dirac makes, so from that perspective it's doing a great job, but it totally dismantles the otherwise coherent center image that my system creates.

Please help.

 

[amirm]

My memory is hazy with regards to last time I tested Dirac full range. Have you tried limiting it to 200 Hz? That is how I run my main system (with Salon 2s).

 

[Dougey_Jones]

My memory is hazy with regards to last time I tested Dirac full range. Have you tried limiting it to 200 Hz? That is how I run my main system (with Salon 2s).

I actually quite like the effect that Dirac has full range, but I will try limiting the project's scope to see if it makes a difference in the imaging.

 

[ozzy9832001]

Hi Everyone,

My systems are in my signature, but this (I think) pertains just to my stereo setup and the MiniDSP Flex with Dirac. I posted about this issue on the MiniDSP forums and haven't had any replies. The basic problem is that whether I use my 0 degree or 90 degree preset (Slot 1 / 2) the center image goes from being crisp and centered to diffuse and off center. Specifically the image shifts UP so that it's about two feet above the top of my Revel F206's and a little bit to the right. If I hit the Dirac button on my remote it goes back to being centered and the vocals are basically level with the midrange/tweeter drivers.

I've tried re-taking the measurements multiple times, but the results are always the same. I've read on other forums that sometimes Dirac will introduce a slight delay but looking at the control panel it doesn't look like that's the case. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing? I'm at a loss at this point, I really like the FR adjustments that Dirac makes, so from that perspective it's doing a great job, but it totally dismantles the otherwise coherent center image that my system creates.

View attachment 306400

Please help.

How are your speakers setup? Particularly is one closer to the sidewall than the other? Is one missing a sidewall completely?

Sounds like an issue where the direct sound is eq'd but the reflection is coming in and causing a partial cancellation whereas before it wasn't.

I believe Dirac will add delays (which it shows none), but can also change the impulse response. At least when I tested it on the PC it did.

 

[Flexecutioner]

I might be way off, but it looks you're sending "Dirac 1" to both your left and right channels. This would be in mono with Dirac off and possibly a issure for the stereo calibration. I've typically used "Dirac 1" for my left channel and "Dirac 2" for my right channel (using both for subwoofers). Can you verify you're getting separate stereo signals for each of your speakers?

 

[ozzy9832001]

I might be way off, but it looks you're sending "Dirac 1" to both your left and right channels. This would be in mono with Dirac off and possibly a issure for the stereo calibration. I've typically used "Dirac 1" for my left channel and "Dirac 2" for my right channel (using both for subwoofers). Can you verify you're getting separate stereo signals for each of your speakers?

You maybe onto something. Dirac 1 also has a delay which I didn't see there before. .06ms and a -.7gain. Looks like 1 correlates to 1 speaker and 2 the other.

 

[Flexecutioner]

You maybe onto something. Dirac 1 also has a delay which I didn't see there before. .06ms and a -.7gain. Looks like 1 correlates to 1 speaker and 2 the other.

Normally I'd agree that those delay and gain adjustments would both make sense with OP's subjective impression that the center image moves right when Dirac is enabled, but that same signal is still being sent to both the left and right channel whether Dirac is enabled or not. Either way, I think the initial setup is the issue.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I might be way off, but it looks you're sending "Dirac 1" to both your left and right channels. This would be in mono with Dirac off and possibly a issure for the stereo calibration. I've typically used "Dirac 1" for my left channel and "Dirac 2" for my right channel (using both for subwoofers). Can you verify you're getting separate stereo signals for each of your speakers?

This is a good insight, I manually changed them both to Dirac 1 because I (probably mistakenly) thought that Dirac 1 and Dirac 2 was referring to the "slots" and that it was sending the 0 degree preset to the left channel and the 90 degree preset to the right channel. If you guys are confirming that it doesn't mean that, that's great.

BUT.

If I press the #1 button on my remote, it changes both to Dirac 1, and if I press the #2 button, it changes Output 1 to Dirac 1 and Output 2 to Dirac 2. I haven't hit the save button at any point, so I don't think that I could've change it to work this way.

Thoughts?

I'll post pictures of the room tomorrow so that people can comment on how that may be contributing or detracting from the overall function of this setup.

 

[Flexecutioner]

This is a good insight, I manually changed them both to Dirac 1 because I (probably mistakenly) thought that Dirac 1 and Dirac 2 was referring to the "slots" and that it was sending the 0 degree preset to the left channel and the 90 degree preset to the right channel. If you guys are confirming that it doesn't mean that, that's great.

BUT.

If I press the #1 button on my remote, it changes both to Dirac 1, and if I press the #2 button, it changes Output 1 to Dirac 1 and Output 2 to Dirac 2. I haven't hit the save button at any point, so I don't think that I could've change it to work this way.

Thoughts?

I'll post pictures of the room tomorrow so that people can comment on how that may be contributing or detracting from the overall function of this setup.

A lot to unpack here and it sounds like there are multiple compounding factors leading to your results.

The miniDSP Flex "slots" (as you called them) "Dirac 1" and "Dirac 2" refer to the stereo license and have nothing to do with the microphone orientation. You should be using the initial steps of Dirac to load the appropriate calibration file for your microphone setup.

The presets are based on a factory setup and honestly don't mean much. If you don't load a Dirac filter to a given preset after your measurements, there won't be anything to compare to anyway.

Honestly, you can use this tutorial on miniDSP and ignore anything relating to the subwoofer (mainly the crossovers, and channel time delays): https://www.minidsp.com/applications/subwoofer-tuning/sub-integration-dirac

It's literally putting the left channel on "Dirac 1", right channel on "Dirac 2", making sure the calibration file for the microphone is correct, making sure the levels are correct, taking measurements, selecting a target and window, then exporting the filters to the minidsp preset you select. Each preset on your miniDSP is independent, so if you change the routing, delays, or gain, you'll either need to retake measurements or be changing it for a specific reason.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

I have had the same results as you and put it down to a room non-symmetry.
My listening area has the right hand side open and the left closely walled.
I get the same effect in imaging and tonal changes you have succinctly described.

I now don't use Dirac and use REW along with specific methods to created filters in my SHD to smooth out room interaction.
I don't believe you can completely DSP room anomalies but it certainly does help.
Will like to see your plan view.

Good thread Mr Jones

 

[tmtomh]

This is a good insight, I manually changed them both to Dirac 1 because I (probably mistakenly) thought that Dirac 1 and Dirac 2 was referring to the "slots" and that it was sending the 0 degree preset to the left channel and the 90 degree preset to the right channel. If you guys are confirming that it doesn't mean that, that's great.

BUT.

If I press the #1 button on my remote, it changes both to Dirac 1, and if I press the #2 button, it changes Output 1 to Dirac 1 and Output 2 to Dirac 2. I haven't hit the save button at any point, so I don't think that I could've change it to work this way.

Thoughts?

I'll post pictures of the room tomorrow so that people can comment on how that may be contributing or detracting from the overall function of this setup.

Don't take my word without getting confirmation from others, but I believe the MiniDSP's output routing can be changed/customized to each preset slot. So if you had both channels being output to both speakers, and you corrected that so only the left channel goes to the left speaker and the right channel to the right speaker, I believe that correction would apply only to whichever preset you had active when you made that correction. So your other presets would still have the outputs set incorrectly, and so that incorrect output routing would take effect when you switched to another preset slot on your remote.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

A lot to unpack here and it sounds like there are multiple compounding factors leading to your results.

The miniDSP Flex "slots" (as you called them) "Dirac 1" and "Dirac 2" refer to the stereo license and have nothing to do with the microphone orientation. You should be using the initial steps of Dirac to load the appropriate calibration file for your microphone setup.

The presets are based on a factory setup and honestly don't mean much. If you don't load a Dirac filter to a given preset after your measurements, there won't be anything to compare to anyway.

Honestly, you can use this tutorial on miniDSP and ignore anything relating to the subwoofer (mainly the crossovers, and channel time delays): https://www.minidsp.com/applications/subwoofer-tuning/sub-integration-dirac

It's literally putting the left channel on "Dirac 1", right channel on "Dirac 2", making sure the calibration file for the microphone is correct, making sure the levels are correct, taking measurements, selecting a target and window, then exporting the filters to the minidsp preset you select. Each preset on your miniDSP is independent, so if you change the routing, delays, or gain, you'll either need to retake measurements or be changing it for a specific reason.

Thank you for this explanation. I am still confused though, because when I complete the stereo Dirac Live measurements process and go to the export step, it asks me which of my four "slots" I would like to save and export my results to. The first time I ran Dirac Live on my Flex, it saved the stereo results to slot 1. So my logic was, I would like to see if the 90 degree mic calibration has any effect on the imaging problem, so I ran it again and saved and exported those results to slot 2. I understand that the Flex has four outputs, so it does make sense that there would be four slots, but then why wouldn't a single stereo calibration routine occupy two slots instead of one?

My other Dirac Live device (Onkyo RZ50) follows a similar logic. It has three slots, and each of the three slots can store the full measurements for as many channels as you have configured, whether it's the 5.1 that I'm using or up to 11.2 channels that the preamp outputs support.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the four channels are assignable and that the Dirac buttons 1-4 reflect single stored measurements. If that's the case, then why weren't two slots occupied the first time that I ran Dirac? It DOES measure both left and right each go round.

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

"Dirac 1" input is left speaker and "Dirac 2" input is right speaker.
Flex can store 4 distinct DSP configurations (levels, routing, peq filters, Dirac filters,...) In 4 presets 1 to 4 that can also be renamed.
Button 1-4 on your remote refer to these 4 presets configurations.
In your screenshot, you effectively assign the left channel input to your both left and right speakers!
You should redo calibration with proper routing (Dirac 1 to output 1, Dirac 2 to output 2). And save it to different presets.
You need first to select the preset, make sure to reset any previous settings, configure routing, do calibration and save to it to matching preset.
Then do the same for the second calibration using another preset.

 

[tw99]

"Dirac 1" input is left speaker and "Dirac 2" input is right speaker.
Flex can store 4 distinct DSP configurations (levels, routing, peq filters, Dirac filters,...) In 4 presets 1 to 4 that can also be renamed.
Button 1-4 on your remote refer to these 4 presets configurations.
In your screenshot, you effectively assign the left channel input to your both left and right speakers!
You should redo calibration with proper routing (Dirac 1 to output 1, Dirac 2 to output 2). And save it to different presets.
You need first to select the preset, make sure to reset any previous settings, configure routing, do calibration and save to it to matching preset.
Then do the same for the second calibration using another preset.

I agree, this is correct (although strictly Dirac 1 / 2 are the left / right input Channels, not "speakers").

The OP should take this advice before doing anything else...

 

[Dougey_Jones]

"Dirac 1" input is left speaker and "Dirac 2" input is right speaker.
Flex can store 4 distinct DSP configurations (levels, routing, peq filters, Dirac filters,...) In 4 presets 1 to 4 that can also be renamed.
Button 1-4 on your remote refer to these 4 presets configurations.
In your screenshot, you effectively assign the left channel input to your both left and right speakers!
You should redo calibration with proper routing (Dirac 1 to output 1, Dirac 2 to output 2). And save it to different presets.
You need first to select the preset, make sure to reset any previous settings, configure routing, do calibration and save to it to matching preset.
Then do the same for the second calibration using another preset.

Thank you, I’ll try this.

But I still don’t understand why the Dirac routine tests both left and right channels and then stores the results in one slot? If it were just testing one channel at a time, wouldn’t you expect it to just test L, then R?

 

[tmtomh]

Thank you, I’ll try this.

But I still don’t understand why the Dirac routine tests both left and right channels and then stores the results in one slot? If it were just testing one channel at a time, wouldn’t you expect it to just test L, then R?

View attachment 306400

Please help.

The MiniDSP has four preset slots - lower left corner of the control app image you have shared. Each slot is not for a channel/speaker - instead, each slot is for the entire range of settings, applied to however many channels your music equipment is set up to play - 2-channel stereo, 2.1 stereo with sub, 4-channel, whatever.

So in your image, the Dirac correction and all other settings for "Dirac 1" and "Dirac 2" are saved in a single preset. Just to the right of Dirac 1 and Dirac 2 are Output 1, Output 2, Output 3, and Output 4. Output 1 corresponds - or should correspond - to Dirac 1. Same deal for Output 2 and Dirac 2. Output 3 and Output 4 have no settings activated under them, in their columns, because your setup is only a 2-channel stereo setup. If you had a four-channel setup, though, then all four channels' settings would get saved in one preset.

So... in your image, you'll notice that right under Output 2, there's a green box that says Dirac 1. That should say Dirac 2 instead.

You will also notice that under each output there are a bunch of other settings - PEQ, crossover, delay, gain, etc. These are MiniDSP settings, separate from what Dirac does. You do not have to activate or do any thing with any of those settings. But you could mess with them if you wanted, and if you did, those settings would also be saved as part of one of the four Presets visible in the lower left of your image.

In fact, let's say you applied some PEQ (manual parametric EQ) in addition to whatever Dirac has done. Those EQ settings would get saved, along with the Dirac correction settings, to whichever Preset you chose. And if you switched to a different Preset, those PEQ settings would not be applied. Just like the Dirac corrections, the PEQ and other settings are all part of one preset, and the other presets are a "blank slate" with no settings at all unless or until you save some settings to those other presets.

So you need to change your basic conceptual understanding here: 4 presets on the MiniDSP means you can have 4 different, complete sets of configuration settings for your entire hi-fi system.

For example, let's say that in your listening room you also have a desk or table where you like to listen to music while you work, do art or other hobbies, etc. And that desk or table is, of course, in a different location in your room than your main listening seat. Well, you can take measurements with Dirac using your main listening seat as your reference and then save the Dirac correction filter to Preset 1 on your MiniDSP. Then you can take another set of measurements with Dirac using your desk/table as the main listening location. When you do that, Dirac will get different measurements and make different corrections. You can set that Dirac correction filter to Preset 2 on your MiniDSP. Then, when you're hanging out at your desk/table, you just press #2 on the MiniDSP remote and the sound of your system changes, to better suit where you are listening from at that time. When you return to your main listening seat, you press #1 on the remote and the sound changes back to what's optimal for when you're sitting there.

There are many reasons one might do this. Someone might have a home studio where they might need one Dirac setting for when they're at their mixing desk, and a different Dirac setting for when a client or friend is visiting and they are sitting in a chair where visitors sit to listen to the finished mix. Someone might have a home theater where they want a different sonic balance for watching movies on surround vs playing stereo music just with the front L and R speakers. Someone might want one preset, taken with just a few Dirac mic measurements, for everyday listening to maximize optimization of the sound at the "sweet spot" - but another, separate preset based on additional Dirac mic measurements, for when they have friends over and want the sound to be more averaged so that it sounds decent across a wider listening area beyond just the one-listener sweet spot.

The point, though, remains the same in all cases: a preset is an entire setup; it's not a single channel.

EDIT: While I was typing and editing this, @Anthony LoFi posted a very nice explanation of the concept too, just below.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Just a Clarification
I think what others here are saying is that:
Once the Dirac calibration step by step process has completed, saves a stereo file in one of the 4 preset Dirac slots.
You can repeat the calibration process with for example a different output frequency curve and save it in any of the remaining 3 slots.
In your case, you can repeat the calibration process with your 90 degree mic change and save in slot 2.

Then while playing your system music reference track, can switch between the two Dirac slots on the remote.
I believe you can do this while in the Dirac software when activating the Dirac software from the miniDSP software.

Because we are discussing two specific software applications and how they affect each other when used together confusion can easily be created when using this type of written format.

The miniDSP software controls all channel signal processing. It has a known "block" of specific filters/controls in series with each other in an ordered state.
Within the miniDSP software is the ability to add an additional block of stereo Dirac files to process in series with other processing blocks.
This is turned on and off by the remote Dirac button.
I am not 100% sure but think the Dirac stereo filter is processed before the other miniDSP blocks.

I also dont believe you manually can have the ability to re-arrange where in the Dirac stereo filter is placed in miniDSP series of processing blocks.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

The reason for you post
Your problem is that your present calibration of your room using Dirac has not meet your expectations which you have clearly described in your first post on this thread.
Problems with imaging and tone coloration when using Dirac I also have experienced when I first used this feature that came with my SHD.
Flex and SHD share the same software.

I use a mic (U-MIK) in a 90degree position in conjunction with the supplied cal files that came with the microphone.
I do this on the supposition that the upward facing diaphragm is less susceptible to large impulses where in the 0 degree position would have to accept.
The Dirac cal tones are relatively short in length with no perceptible large volume changes so I don't think it would matter which mic position you use.
Your creation of two stereo Dirac presets (Slot 1 & 2), one at 0 and one at 90 will confirm if you can discount mic position as the reason why the Dirac filter is trying to correct room anomalies, but interfering with the original imagining that your source material has been recorded to.

If you get the same results on both mic presets stereo Dirac files, I suggest you may need to confirm and try a few things that cost nothing.

Make sure your speaker manufacturer has provided the ideal speaker placement as referenced to your listening position.
Different speakers may require different toe in angles in relation to your listening position and a equal triangle of distance between the listening position and distance between the speakers.
Also moving the stereo speakers away from room walls both rear and at each side can have quite an impact on imaging.

So the trial and error of adjustment using the speaker manufacturers recommendations is paramount.
You do this with the Dirac turned off.
Using your reference music tracks to test each adjustment of speaker position until you believe you have got it as best you can under your room layout.
This can get very tiring, concentrating on the test tracks over and over again, so take a 30 minute break to let your music memory reset and audition again.

When you have found the best position, then re-calibrate your Dirac process and hopefully the improvement will be better.
I think we would love to hear your outcome as there could be other factors that other forum members could add to help you get the best outcome from your investment.

Note:
I notice from your original screen shot of the miniDSP software, you are not using the crossover feature or any PEQ filters.
The audio source is just being sent through the Flex to you amplifiers with no processing adjustments.
All the best Mr Jones

 

[Dougey_Jones]

The MiniDSP has four preset slots - lower left corner of the control app image you have shared. Each slot is not for a channel/speaker - instead, each slot is for the entire range of settings, applied to however many channels your music equipment is set up to play - 2-channel stereo, 2.1 stereo with sub, 4-channel, whatever.

So in your image, the Dirac correction and all other settings for "Dirac 1" and "Dirac 2" are saved in a single preset. Just to the right of Dirac 1 and Dirac 2 are Output 1, Output 2, Output 3, and Output 4. Output 1 corresponds - or should correspond - to Dirac 1. Same deal for Output 2 and Dirac 2. Output 3 and Output 4 have no settings activated under them, in their columns, because your setup is only a 2-channel stereo setup. If you had a four-channel setup, though, then all four channels' settings would get saved in one preset.

So... in your image, you'll notice that right under Output 2, there's a green box that says Dirac 1. That should say Dirac 2 instead.

You will also notice that under each output there are a bunch of other settings - PEQ, crossover, delay, gain, etc. These are MiniDSP settings, separate from what Dirac does. You do not have to activate or do any thing with any of those settings. But you could mess with them if you wanted, and if you did, those settings would also be saved as part of one of the four Presets visible in the lower left of your image.

In fact, let's say you applied some PEQ (manual parametric EQ) in addition to whatever Dirac has done. Those EQ settings would get saved, along with the Dirac correction settings, to whichever Preset you chose. And if you switched to a different Preset, those PEQ settings would not be applied. Just like the Dirac corrections, the PEQ and other settings are all part of one preset, and the other presets are a "blank slate" with no settings at all unless or until you save some settings to those other presets.

So you need to change your basic conceptual understanding here: 4 presets on the MiniDSP means you can have 4 different, complete sets of configuration settings for your entire hi-fi system.

For example, let's say that in your listening room you also have a desk or table where you like to listen to music while you work, do art or other hobbies, etc. And that desk or table is, of course, in a different location in your room than your main listening seat. Well, you can take measurements with Dirac using your main listening seat as your reference and then save the Dirac correction filter to Preset 1 on your MiniDSP. Then you can take another set of measurements with Dirac using your desk/table as the main listening location. When you do that, Dirac will get different measurements and make different corrections. You can set that Dirac correction filter to Preset 2 on your MiniDSP. Then, when you're hanging out at your desk/table, you just press #2 on the MiniDSP remote and the sound of your system changes, to better suit where you are listening from at that time. When you return to your main listening seat, you press #1 on the remote and the sound changes back to what's optimal for when you're sitting there.

There are many reasons one might do this. Someone might have a home studio where they might need one Dirac setting for when they're at their mixing desk, and a different Dirac setting for when a client or friend is visiting and they are sitting in a chair where visitors sit to listen to the finished mix. Someone might have a home theater where they want a different sonic balance for watching movies on surround vs playing stereo music just with the front L and R speakers. Someone might want one preset, taken with just a few Dirac mic measurements, for everyday listening to maximize optimization of the sound at the "sweet spot" - but another, separate preset based on additional Dirac mic measurements, for when they have friends over and want the sound to be more averaged so that it sounds decent across a wider listening area beyond just the one-listener sweet spot.

The point, though, remains the same in all cases: a preset is an entire setup; it's not a single channel.

EDIT: While I was typing and editing this, @Anthony LoFi posted a very nice explanation of the concept too, just below.

This actually doesn’t represent a change, this is how I thought it worked from the get go. That each of the four slots represents a complete configuration. What threw me for a loop was people saying that it was wrong that I had Dirac 1 assigned to both Left and Right.

I did two sets of measurements, Slot 1 was with the 0degree mic cal and Slot 2 was the 90degree cal. I wanted to see if using a different mic cal would clear up my issue and it didn’t.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Note:
I notice from your original screen shot of the miniDSP software, you are not using the crossover feature or any PEQ filters.
The audio source is just being sent through the Flex to you amplifiers with no processing adjustments.
All the best Mr Jones

My understanding is that the Dirac EQ profile is separate from the PEQ which is also available in the Flex control panel. When I turn Dirac on and off there is a big change in the sound, I just didn’t have any use for the separate PEQ or Crossover. I’m not using a sub, just the F206’s with the standard +6db bass and -2db downward sloping house Dirac curve which mostly resembles the Harman curve.

I’ll post screenshots from my Dirac Live saved project when I get home from work and have access to my laptop.

Note: I’ve been using a little mini tripod and sitting the mic on the couch, using Amazon boxes and other objects to get the mic to my exact head height for the MLP measurement, etc. I have a legit mic stand and tripod I can use if that’ll make for better measurements, but I’d have to take the measurements from the middle of the room as the couch can’t be moved.

If you all think that would be preferable, I’ll spend the time.