Digital vs Vinyl

[David Harper]

And in the car. I don't listen to music in my car very often since the music I like best has so much dynamic range even if the loudest bits are at the limit of my system the quiet bits disappear below the noise floor for minutes at a time .
I think the vast majority of people are listening to music in cars and one earbuds whilst outdoors and headphones at a desk and for them a narrow dynamic range is probably a necessity.
IME very few people listen to music as a serious way of spending time rather than as a background to something else.

I rarely listen to music in the car because there is no music that can compete with the sound of my engine as I'm banging thru the gears.

 

[Geoffkait]

Same goes for SPL meter. It will measure lower in a compressed system, as I’ve described one in my previous post, than in a system that’s not compressed, relatively speaking. In other words, the system’s sound really IS compressed, its not just your perception of the sound. There‘s no substitute for Signal to Noise Ratio or Dynamic Range. Everything’s relative.

Note: in my previous post today, I just made two edits - (1) it’s not the tray that’s the issue with level it’s the CD itself while spinning, the tray can be out of level itself relative to the spinning CD and/or the top of the player or transport. (2j I added “room acoustics anomalies“ to the list of reasons why the system itself can often be dynamically compressed.

cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Not too chicken to change

 

[Frgirard]

Hal 9000 what do you think?

Tolkien help us.

 

[Geoffkait]

Good one.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I rarely listen to music in the car because there is no music that can compete with the sound of my engine as I'm banging thru the gears.

I also have a car like that I only have a radio in it and I only switch it on in a traffic jam, though I usually don't use it when there is likely to be heavy traffic on the journey!

 

[Frank Dernie]

I believe many CD systems are themselves compressed dynamically, so it could be rather difficult to perceive differences in dynamic range. Some reasons why I say CD systems are compressed dynamically include but are not limited to, (1) the system is in reverse polarity, (2) the source CD is in reverse polarity, (3) system electronics are not sufficiently isolated from vibration, (4) CD disc flutters too much while spinning (perhaps because the CD is not absolutely level and/or disc out of round), (5) RFI/EMI issues. I would expect CD systems in downtown locations to sound more dynamically compressed than systems in rural locations, for example.

Reverse polarity does not dynamically compress.
No solid state electronics is audibly vibration sensitive.
Servos deal with off centre and warped discs. If the error is big enough you get muting which sounds like spits since it is rarely for long. It does not and has no mechanism by which it could cause dynamic compression.
I don't know what RFI/EMI issues might be, noise pickup probably, but yet again no mechanism by which they cause dynamic compression.
What have you been smoking?

 

[DSJR]

The susceptibility to mains interference in CD players (and the spouting of noise back into the mains and down the signal screens apparently) I think was 'solved' a couple of decades back if not earlier. I still use ferrites and Roxburgh filters on my digital stuff but in this coastal location, even my geriatric TDA1541 based player doesn't seem to mind either way these days - or my ears are now so shot it doesn't matter any more...

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I believe many CD systems are themselves compressed dynamically, so it could be rather difficult to perceive differences in dynamic range. Some reasons why I say CD systems are compressed dynamically include but are not limited to, (1) the system is in reverse polarity, (2) the source CD is in reverse polarity, (3) system electronics are not sufficiently isolated from vibration, (4) CD disc flutters too much while spinning (perhaps because the CD is not absolutely level and/or disc out of round), (5) RFI/EMI issues. I would expect CD systems in downtown locations to sound more dynamically compressed than systems in rural locations, for example.

Every one of the things you cite have nothing to do with dynamic compression of the type used to compress music and speech. They will impact noise floor and jitter will influence distortion to some degree, but none of these mechanisms are anything like dynamic compression; dynamic compression means there is a departure from level linearity from the original master and what ends up on the delivery medium.

 

[Geoffkait]

I didn’t say they have anything to do with compression of music or speech by manufacturers. I said those things (lack of room treatment, lack of isolation, etc.) compress dynamics of the music when played through the home system. And that’s why it’s often difficult hearing the effects of compression when differences are actually there. Haven’t you ever wondered, “Gee, shouldn’t CDs be more dynamic sounding? After all, they say CDs have 90 dB of dynamic range. Hel-loo!”

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I didn’t day they have anything to do with over compression of music or speech my manufacturers. If you read carefully, what I said was those things (lack of room treatment, lack of isolation, etc.) compress dynamics of the music when played through the home system. And that’s why it’s often difficult hearing the effects of compression when differences are actually there. Haven’t you ever wondered, gee, shouldn’t CDs be more dynamic sounding?

Again wrong. The only thing which is 'compressed' is the SINAD, meaning its lower. The lowest to highest level range of the original music on the CD is the same regardless. Even if the noise floor is on paper higher than the lowest level of the music, the music can still be heard below the noise floor. Noise doesn't create a hard floor, below which nothing can be heard. The only difference between a noisier and a quieter CD player is that the lowest levels of music on the CD will be heard with noise overlaid on the noisier player.

Does the hiss you hear from your tweeters mean that there cannot be any sound heard below that hiss?

 

[q3cpma]

I didn’t say they have anything to do with compression of music or speech by manufacturers. I said those things (lack of room treatment, lack of isolation, etc.) compress dynamics of the music when played through the home system. And that’s why it’s often difficult hearing the effects of compression when differences are actually there. Haven’t you ever wondered, “Gee, shouldn’t CDs be more dynamic sounding? After all, they say CDs have 90 dB of dynamic range. Hel-loo!”

Most people simply rip CDs and play back digital audio from their computer, though.

 

[Geoffkait]

“Again wrong. The only thing which is 'compressed' is the SINAD, meaning its lower. The range of the original music on the CD is the same regardless. Even if the noise floor is on paper higher than the lowest level of the music, the music can still be heard below the noise floor. Noise doesn't create a hard floor, below which nothing can be heard.”

I’m pretty sure you’re confusing signal to noise ratio with dynamic range.

 

[Geoffkait]

”Most people simply rip CDs and play back digital audio from their computer, though.”

>>>Really? How do you know? Did somebody take a poll? Besides, I’m not addressing those who rip CDs and play back through their computers. Isn’t that obvious?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

“Again wrong. The only thing which is 'compressed' is the SINAD, meaning its lower. The range of the original music on the CD is the same regardless. Even if the noise floor is on paper higher than the lowest level of the music, the music can still be heard below the noise floor. Noise doesn't create a hard floor, below which nothing can be heard.”

I’m pretty sure you’re confusing signal to noise ratio with dynamic range.

No I am not. You are confusing the intentional compression of the dynamic range performed by the engineers with 'dynamic range' as in the context of noise verses signal. These are totally different things and one cannot control the other - the CD player cannot directly change the dynamic range of the music on the recording. The only possible exception to this would be non-linearity of the DACs at the extreme lowest levels of their operation, but any modern DAC has far more linear performance below -110dB than any human could ever hear. The DAC tests Amir performs show this parameter. If you can hear a 1/2db deviation at -120db, then I think scientists might be interested in testing your superhuman hearing abilities.

 

[Geoffkait]

You’re confusing the dynamic range that‘s on the recording with the dynamic range in the room produced by the speakers. Do you think all speakers have the same dynamic range?

Thought experiment: If you covered the speakers with heavy blankets it would hurt the dynamic range, right?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

You’re confusing the dynamic range that‘s on the recording with the dynamic range in the room produced by the speakers. Thought experiment: If you covered the speakers with heavy blankets it would hurt the dynamic range, right?

No, I am not confused.

A heavy blanket over the speaker would severely affect the frequency response of the speaker - it would attenuate the higher frequencies. Disconnecting the tweeter would do this too. This still has nothing to do with dynamic range, compression of dynamic range or expansion of dynamic range - you're just altering the frequency response because of the blanket, and this certainly has nothing to do with what a CD player does or doesn't do. Please do some study and Googling as I see I'm making zero headway here.

 

[Geoffkait]

Do you agree that the volume of the sound would be lower with a blanket over the speakers? I’m sure you will say yes to that question, right? And volume is independent of frequency response, yes? Now we’re making some headway.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Do you agree that the volume of the sound would be lower with a blanket over the speakers. I’m sure you will say yes to that question, right? And volume is independent of frequency response, yes?

Please, this is useless. I've got real engineering duties to perform at my day job.

 

[SIY]

Please, this is useless. I've got real engineering duties to perform at my day job.

I’ve warned people not to engage.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I’ve warned people not to engage.

Sometimes you think somebody genuinely wants to learn or is misinformed. Can't see 'em all I guess.