Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

[amirm]

Amir, what is the easiest way to compare IMD that has the X-axis in power level vs the one you currently are using based on generator level in dBFS?

For example, in the graph below, what power levels in Watt would correspond to generator levels of -60, -30, -5 and 0 dBFS?

Roughly speaking, 0 dB would produce max power. I say "roughly" because it depends on volume position.

 

[studiocity]

Is this a concern if you have your source device or (more likely) the t.v. do the upscaling?

I don’t know if you can actually turn the upscaling off. I’m just saying if you have the x8500h, don’t jump ASAP to get the new update for the hdmi 2.1, because if the inputs then become somehow the same as the x6700h, from my subjective testing, which has been right on every observation thus far, but if the inputs are modified via the 8k paid update, and it’s the same circuit as the x6700h, I think the upscale is not good. The x8500h upscale is very very very good currently. The x6700h is just ok, the difference is easily observable with just a quick view, not even side by side.

 

[Count De Money]

Sí, estoy informado correctamente, el denon 8500h tiene estéreo dac akm 4490 en cada canal si tiene 13 canales imagino que tendrá 7 dac akm 4490 vs el multicanal akm 4458 en los rangos más bajos

en realidad, tiene 8 x 32-bit AKM AK4490EQ stereo DACS

dont correct me

 

[DLxP]

Great review and not unexpected given the way Denons have been performing. I certainly recall @peng predicting this.

I'll still be keeping my 4700 for the foreseeable though, which for me represents the best balance of price/performance/functionality, especially as having HDMI 2.1 right now is very important to me as a gamer.

Here's an idea for Denon:

• release a flagship pre-pro
• use its release to refresh the GUI/OSD
• use its release to update the Audyssey app and include a desktop version, leveraging Audyssey's existing potential, allowing at least Ratbuddyssey-level functionality

That's all they need to do to completely dominate the market, IMHO. Unfortunately, I can't see it happening with Marantz's interests to look after.

 

[carlob]

I don’t know if you can actually turn the upscaling off. I’m just saying if you have the x8500h, don’t jump ASAP to get the new update for the hdmi 2.1, because if the inputs then become somehow the same as the x6700h, from my subjective testing, which has been right on every observation thus far, but if the inputs are modified via the 8k paid update, and it’s the same circuit as the x6700h, I think the upscale is not good. The x8500h upscale is very very very good currently. The x6700h is just ok, the difference is easily observable with just a quick view, not even side by side.

you don’t need the AVR to do the upscaling, let the tv do It.

 

[iLoveCats]

Good to see a decent result; alsmot scary how much better than the Marantz sister product the 8500H does.

I'm no longer going to sully the name of Denon with Marantz. Its obvious there is some division between the two. All the smart people work on the Denon side of the room.

 

[RichB]

I'm no longer going to sully the name of Denon with Marantz. Its obvious there is some division between the two. All the smart people work on the Denon side of the room.

That would be ideal. Thus far, the Denon has better SINAD, correct reconstruction filters, and better looks.
I suppose they are looking for differentiators between Denon/Marantz.

- Rich

 

[peng]

That would be ideal. Thus far, the Denon has better SINAD, correct reconstruction filters, and better looks.
I suppose they are looking for differentiators between Denon/Marantz.

- Rich

Would Marantz win you back if the AV8807 had the 30 HDAMs replaced with some high quality OPA buffers, double the volume ICs for differential connections as they seem to be the bottleneck relative to the AK4490 (that should be replaced with the newer AK4493 or even the 4497) and add an user selectable option for the reconstruction filters?

The money they will save on 30 discrete HDAM buffers should allow them to do all of the above without jacking the price up, well, may be a few dollars.

 

[RichB]

Would Marantz win you back if the AV8807 had the 30 HDAMs replaced with some high quality OPA buffers, double the volume ICs for differential connections as they seem to be the bottleneck relative to the AK4490 (that should be replaced with the newer AK4493 or even the 4497) and add an user selectable option for the reconstruction filters?

The money they will save on 30 discrete HDAM buffers should allow them to do all of the above without jacking the price up, well, may be a few dollars.

There are real features to add in a processor that are more than dropping amps, rounding sides, and adding a portal.

Sine you asked, here are differentiators that could be offered by processor from Marantz or Denon ):

• Fully differential/balanced internally (to increase performance and resistance to environmental noise)
• Latest DACs
• Fast/Sharp reconstruction filters (Optional slow/sloppy/dribbley filters)
• A full front display and remove the useless portal (Marantz Only)
• Remove rounded sides (Marantz Only)
• Direct mode that applies only bass management and no REQ/PEQ
• HDMI Video only - Remove all legacy component/composite video
• USB DAC with multi-channel support
• Native Roon with multi-channel support (not just Airplay)
• OSD overlay, drop all scaling and video processing - this only adds heat and that can degrade video
• Remove FM/AM tuner - just because
• Option for Multi-sub operation (similar to Dirac Bass Control)

Simply put: ditch legacy features, make balanced, drop Marantz non-sense and all features that degrade performance and increase cost.

- Rich

 

[bigguyca]

Would Marantz win you back if the AV8807 had the 30 HDAMs replaced with some high quality OPA buffers, double the volume ICs for differential connections as they seem to be the bottleneck relative to the AK4490 (that should be replaced with the newer AK4493 or even the 4497) and add an user selectable option for the reconstruction filters?

The money they will save on 30 discrete HDAM buffers should allow them to do all of the above without jacking the price up, well, may be a few dollars.

You have a clear lack of understanding of HDAM's, and therefore the number of HDAM's in the AV8805. There are 75 HDAM's in the AV8805. There are five HDAM's per channel in the AV8805,, plus four bipolar transistors per channel for voltage gain.

It would be ridiculous to replace each of these HDAM's with a high performance TI opamp. Two opamps, that is one dual, per channel would be required.

 

[bigguyca]

There are real features to add in a processor that are more than dropping amps, rounding sides, and adding a portal.

Sine you asked, here are differentiators that could be offered by processor from Marantz or Denon ):

• Fully differential/balanced internally (to increase performance and resistance to environmental noise)
• Latest DACs
• Fast/Sharp reconstruction filters (Optional slow/sloppy/dribbley filters)
• A full front display and remove the useless portal (Marantz Only)
• Remove rounded sides (Marantz Only)
• Direct mode that applies only bass management and no REQ/PEQ
• HDMI Video only - Remove all legacy component/composite video
• USB DAC with multi-channel support
• Native Roon with multi-channel support (not just Airplay)
• OSD overlay, drop all scaling and video processing - this only adds heat and that can degrade video
• Remove FM/AM tuner - just because
• Option for Multi-sub operation (similar to Dirac Bass Control)

Simply put: ditch legacy features, make balanced, drop Marantz non-sense and all features that degrade performance and increase cost.

- Rich

May I ask you to provide a link to the website where I can preorder?

 

[tparm]

Its good to see the x8500 with the slightly better dac chip pull through. It remind me of an Andrew Jones quote you had said in one of your reviews "when other companies use 50 cent parts I spend a dollar" I think the dark horse of this race is going to be the Nad 778

Really curious on the 778 too. I own an X4700 so my shopping is done for a while, but I'm still curious!

 

[Ucftechguru]

Finally an AVRi can save up and look forward to. I’ve bought the last three AVRs from accessories4less, refurbished, so I’ll hope that I can pick this one up $2400-ish when the 2021s come out.

Hopefully in the refurbs they don’t try to throw in the janky x6700 capacitors!!

 

[bigguyca]

Thanks for the kind words. Our mains voltage here is around 120 volts. My circuit is capable of 20 amps. Total power with 5 channels driven was around 700 watts so well below the limit. This is with all 5 channels running continuously which you won't be doing. Net, net, you have have a tiny to no advantage with 240 volts.

It isn't clear what your total power number above means. Based on your measurements the total output power from five channels was about 650W. At a guess of 60% efficient, the power amplifiers would be drawing about 1,100W from their power supply. Added to this would be various losses in the transformer and other areas, plus the power used by the digital board. Let's say for easy numbers, 1,200W to 1,320W.

At a power factor of one and a 120V line voltages the current draw would be 10A to 11A. At 240 volts, evidently that's the local voltage of the poster, units sold in the U.S. don't want to see 240V, the current would obviously be 5A to 5.5A, which is certainly reasonable.

 

[RichB]

May I ask you to provide a link to the website where I can preorder?

A fella can dream.
It took about 20 minutes to come up with that list.
It seem obvious to anyone following AVR/AVRs so that includes folks making these products.

I don't see a single $5K or less processor that has implemented MCH USB or Roon audio even as they add their 13'th channel

- Rich

 

[Dj7675]

It is sold out right now @ A4L ... refurb for $2,800 US.

Those are good deals too ...
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...7200wa-9.2-ch-x-150-watts-a/v-receiver/1.html

• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

Safeandsoundhq has open box units quite often.
https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/prod...l-a-v-reveiver-with-auro-3d-and-heos-open-box
I ordered mine there and it was in perfect condition. I have bought several items from them and there service has been quite good as well.

 

[peng]

You have a clear lack of understanding of HDAM's, and therefore the number of HDAM's in the AV8805. There are 75 HDAM's in the AV8805. There are five HDAM's per channel in the AV8805,, plus four bipolar transistors per channel for voltage gain.

It would be ridiculous to replace each of these HDAM's with a high performance TI opamp. Two opamps, that is one dual, per channel would be required.

I counted 15 "HDAM/XLR-AMP UNIT", that is one such unit per channel, and I only said 30 because due to the balanced configuration would have two of the basic modules plus additional circuitry for connecting the inverted one. The service manual also show there are one such unit (HDAM/XLR-AMP UNIT) X 15 channel, it is on page 34. If your claim of 75 HDAMs in the AV8805 include modules used somewhere else outside of the preamp circuit, then fine but that's not what I was referring to.

There is a picture here:
https://www.lowbeats.de/marantz-av8805-av-vorverstaerker-mit-vollausstattung/

I have been respectful to you so far but you are really pushy the limit, for being being rude time and again. There is no need to be so rude even if I did make a mistake or showed lack of understanding of something. Just pointing out the mistake is sufficient and would have been appreciated. As far as replacing HDAMs with opa ICs, I was only kidding around with RichB, but even if I was serious, it is only "ridiculous" in your opinion that you are entitled just as I am entitled to my opinion.

 

[North_Sky]

en realidad, tiene 8 x 32-bit AKM AK4490EQ stereo DACS

dont correct me

I concur...AKM AK4490Q DAC (stereo) x 8 for a total of 16 DACs.

* Bonus: Just for comparison fun of it ... Denon 8500 vs Yamaha 3080
• https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x8500h(avc-x8500h)/uk/yamaha-rx-a3080/korea/

 

[waynel]

Makes sense from a consumer perspective but not for Denon (or any AVR manufacturer)

Does not work for pricing and margins. Because the pre-pros are licensing costs heavy, the price of the equivalent pre/pro will need to be so close to the all-in-one that they would rather throw the amp in and keep the price differentiated above the next down the line. Otherwise, it will cannibalize the lower tier as well.

They could still charge $4000 for a Denon pre pro and it could be the best option in the market

 

[hmt]

Yeah. Drop the amps, put XLR outs on the back and implement dirac. Would be a killer that ends all other Pre Pros in that price range.