Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

[RichB]

The Stereophile simulated speaker shows varying response, most likely from output impedance but at very low power. Also, many amps have increasing distortion at higher levels. Amplifier performance is also influenced by the protection implementation.
So, that is why having a robust external amplifier has benefits that may not be fully expressed by the standard measurements, or mathematics.

- Rich

 

[Sal1950]

If neither amp gets too close to their clipping point, then I believe all else being equal, despite the Purifi's superior specs and measurements, I may not be able to hear a difference in a controlled DBT.

I'm with you 100% there peng

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, I'm aware. With good quality source (ex. high resolution Qobuz) the sound quality to my ears is better with Pure Direct for most 2 channel music. I think it sounds more natural for lack of a better word- voices and instruments sound slightly more detailed and three dimensional on many songs. In a few cases the difference in detail between Pure Direct and Direct isn't substantial, and in that case I sometimes do prefer standard direct. I did a thorough job of setting up audyssey but it seems like something is lost in the processing. I use Totem Tribe IIIs for the mains, and the REL sub is connected to the AVR main speaker output connectors to the sub's high level inputs. I have the crossover and hi/low level carefully set on the sub and a good location for the sub, so bass management works for me.

I would never deny that any of the DRC system might be introducing some distortions, don't know if anyone ever tried to measure their effects.
OTOH when you talk about hearing differences between direct and pure direct I have to believe these are likely bias introduced hearing error. The only thing going on is that pure direct shuts off the front panel display and maybe one or two other video processes. In fact IIRC Amir measured one of the Marantz units as being better in pure vs pd.
It's an all too wide spread falicy that in general multich systems just have to be audibly inferior to 2 ch. There's no science to support that belief beyond the measurements of some inferior performing cheap components. Carrying this baggage is going to force your brain to hear all sort of things when you listen with your eyes open. Your in a position to run a fairly easy blind test having someone switch between direct and pd without you knowing which is which. If there are no identifying clicks or pops to clue you, see if you can ID which is which out of 25 times? These bias are just human nature and near impossible to avoid for everyone.

 

[keenly]

Is this the only 7.4.6 AVR out there?

 

[Dj7675]

Is this the only 7.6.4 AVR out there?

It is really a 7.2.6.... 7 bend, 2 subs, 6 height or 4 height/2 wides.

 

[keenly]

It is really a 7.2.6.... 7 bend, 2 subs, 6 height or 4 height/2 wides.

I meant 7.4.6.

I am yet to hear any material mixed in that, most is from studios with 7.2.4.

 

[Sal1950]

I meant 7.4.6.

I am yet to hear any material mixed in that, most is from studios with 7.2.4.

The middle number has always referred to the number of subwoofers in a system.

 

[Beershaun]

I meant 7.4.6.

I am yet to hear any material mixed in that, most is from studios with 7.2.4.

My understanding of Atmos is you set the object location and intensity and the rendering in the AVR determines the way to distribute the sounds across the number of channels you have. Meaning whether it is 2 channels or 30 channels the Atmos mix is the same.

 

[keenly]

My understanding of Atmos is you set the object location and intensity and the rendering in the AVR determines the way to distribute the sounds across the number of channels you have. Meaning whether it is 2 channels or 30 channels the Atmos mix is the same.

But some sounds are anchored in certain channels.

 

[jbattman1016]

You gentleman are aware that engaging the Pure Direct mode disables all Audyssey room correction?

Yes, I do understand this, but for my setup this is working best. I suspect if I had a larger room, I might need some EQ and corrections.

 

[bo_knows]

Yes, I do understand this, but for my setup this is working best. I suspect if I had a larger room, I might need some EQ and corrections.

Actually, things work in reverse. Larger room fewer bass issues vs smaller room. Just saying...

 

[ZinMe]

It's an all too wide spread falicy that in general multich systems just have to be audibly inferior to 2 ch. There's no science to support that belief beyond the measurements of some inferior performing cheap components. Carrying this baggage is going to force your brain to hear all sort of things when you listen with your eyes open. Your in a position to run a fairly easy blind test having someone switch between direct and pd without you knowing which is which. If there are no identifying clicks or pops to clue you, see if you can ID which is which out of 25 times? These bias are just human nature and near impossible to avoid for everyone.

I think where this got off track is the comparison of direct vs pure direct. I understand there is little difference in the signal path of the two. I should have said I hear a distinct difference in Stereo mode vs direct/pure direct. I do hear more detail in the direct/pure direct mode, but I will admit it's also possible that some portion of the benefit I hear is related to favoring the un-Audysseyed response curve as played by my speakers even if it's not as flat and linear as it "should" be. I haven't messed with the curve at all since running the Audyssey set-up procedure, so maybe I should play with that, and get the benefit of the bass mgmt.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, I do understand this, but for my setup this is working best. I suspect if I had a larger room, I might need some EQ and corrections.

As mentioned above, smaller rooms require more bass eq than larger rooms.
You are completely welcome to chose your preference in response, but a simple measurement of the bass range with a sound level meter or smart phone app will quickly show the large peaks and valleys at play and the need for correction.
Your choice.

 

[Sal1950]

I think where this got off track is the comparison of direct vs pure direct. I understand there is little difference in the signal path of the two. I should have said I hear a distinct difference in Stereo mode vs direct/pure direct.

OK, If I understand you correctly now, your hearing the difference between having Audyssey at work vs disabled while using the direct/pure direct modes. This would be normal. I believe your hearing of more "detail" in d/pd is due to the major differences in frequency response and not that Audyssey is subtracting any detail. The level of detail in any source can be easily enhanced or lowered by changes in FR.
Feel free to pick your choice, but if your interested in hearing a playback most like the artist-engineers intended, you most likely would be better served by Audyssey room correction well done using the Editor app and a secondary measurement with REW and tweak of Audyssey's settings. As with all DRC software, there's a bit of a learning curve involved in getting the best results.
YMMV

 

[GalZohar]

A more fair comparison would be stereo with Audyssey off to direct/pure direct. That would tell you if the direct/pure direct is responsible for the benefits or whether turning Audyssey off is responsible. If turning it off is responsible, then tweaking it might make you like it much better (especially limiting the correction frequency and manually adjusting the subwoofer distance).

 

[Fidji]

Quick q. - I have Denon 8500HA as secondary receiver and I am really happy with it.
My set-up is 7.2.4 with FL FR SRB SLB being electrostatic speakers [hybrid ones with powered bass section], with all channels driven I could feel already the amplifier part gasping for air a bit.

I have bought 3 purifi amps for L-C-R section + cut all the others at 80Hz and height channels at 100Hz, now it sounds OK, but Denon still running quite hot.

Does it make any sense to go further and buy e.g. smth like this for the remaining bed plane speakers, in terms of real sonic improvement, as this amp is weaker than internal Denon amps with 125W at 8Ohm vs .
NCORE NC252MP 4x - can be had for approx 1.000 Eur from audiophonics

Second option is to have smth like this used for my SBL SBR electrostats -> Hypex Ncore NC502MP in stereo - costing 750 Eur

Or just leave it as it is, as L-C-R is already powered externally and with quite high cut-off frequencies internal Denon amps are living comfortably anyway?

 

[Sal1950]

Or just leave it as it is, as L-C-R is already powered externally and with quite high cut-off frequencies internal Denon amps are living comfortably anyway?

I think that's the best answer, best as in a money saving answer. These Denon's are known to run hot, you might want to look into some fan cooling for it. Nothing crazy, just something to keep the air moving around the case.
Now if you got more money than you need, go ahead and buy a bunch of amps.

 

[JNMNL52]

I just ordered the Denon X8500HA, which is back-ordered and not anticipating shipment until January. I downloaded the latest version of the manual and going through it. I read somewhere on one of the forums that the AK4490 DAC's found on the H model was replaced with an ESS Sabre DAC's on the HA model. Does anyone know the ESS version of this replacement DAC and how it compares to the AK4490?

 

[bigguyca]

I just ordered the Denon X8500HA, which is back-ordered and not anticipating shipment until January. I downloaded the latest version of the manual and going through it. I read somewhere on one of the forums that the AK4490 DAC's found on the H model was replaced with an ESS Sabre DAC's on the HA model. Does anyone know the ESS version of this replacement DAC and how it compares to the AK4490?

ESS ES9010 a two channel DAC IC with generally worse performance than the previous AK4490. The new DAC IC is a clear, modest downgrade. Certainly are performance change in the wrong direction.

However, the effect of the lower performance DAC IC in the X8500HA (and Marantz AV8805A) on the overall measured performance of the X8500HA will have to be determined by measurement. Other component chioices, such as: the volume control IC, opamp and large EI transformer all contribute to measured noise and distortion. Which component(s) dominate isn't clear.

It also isn't clear if Denon has changed other components for the worse. Denon/Sound United/Southbank Capital Partners are not typically open with information concerning their product's components and component changes IMO.

 

[JNMNL52]

ESS ES9010 a two channel DAC IC with generally worse performance than the previous AK4490. The new DAC IC is a clear, modest downgrade. Certainly are performance change in the wrong direction.

However, the effect of the lower performance DAC IC in the X8500HA (and Marantz AV8805A) on the overall measured performance of the X8500HA will have to be determined by measurement. Other component chioices, such as: the volume control IC, opamp and large EI transformer all contribute to measured noise and distortion. Which component(s) dominate isn't clear.

It also isn't clear if Denon has changed other components for the worse. Denon/Sound United/Southbank Capital Partners are not typically open with information concerning their product's components and component changes IMO.

Thanks for this info bigguy. The other day I asked Denon customer service about the DAC in the X8500HA and received this reponse: "As of the moment, we only have a list of the DACs for the 2020 models including the AVR-X8500H. But some of the re-releases of the 2020 models use different DACs and our engineering department has not yet provided us with a list of those changes. Basically we have no DAC information for any model after early 2020. I'd be delighted to provide you with useful information, but we simply do not have it at this time. Please accept my sincere apologies."

I guess this explains why the X8500 HA DAC is omitted from the HA marketing materials. Denon is not being upfront. It would be interesting to have a side by side demo of the X8500H v. X8500HA. So if the ESS ES9010 is inferior to the AK4490, do you think there is an audible difference between the two or just inaudible distortion?