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Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

pedrob

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It has been pointed out that Pure Direct bypasses a lot of digital processing, but then I never claimed it was entirely digital.

For those brave enough to open the lid, I have a simple modification I believe is better than pure direct as it it blocks EMI that is emitted from the power transformer. I have a shield connected to ends of the heat sinks towards the rear of the unit.

If anyone is interested, I can remove it and provide details of the three parts. Fitting is easy as the screws on the end of the heat sinks were only loosened, the two ends shipped behind the heads and retightened. The third part was given a slight curve and the bolts attach it firmly to the two ends. No wiring was touched and they are free to pass under the shield.
 

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bo_knows

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It has been pointed out that Pure Direct bypasses a lot of digital processing, but then I never claimed it was entirely digital.

For those brave enough to open the lid, I have a simple modification I believe is better than pure direct as it it blocks EMI that is emitted from the power transformer. I have a shield connected to ends of the heat sinks towards the rear of the unit.

If anyone is interested, I can remove it and provide details of the three parts. Fitting is easy as the screws on the end of the heat sinks were only loosened, the two ends shipped behind the heads and retightened. The third part was given a slight curve and the bolts attach it firmly to the two ends. No wiring was touched and they are free to pass under the shield.
You got me intrigued...
 

pedrob

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I'll have to remove it to provide the measurements and position of the attachment slots.

There could be one negative issue. Air flow to the power supply board and large capacitors could be compromised although it isn't that fantastic to start with. I've attached a photo with the transformer just showing bottom right. As you can clearly see, there is no real chance of decent air flow.

In my own case it isn't really an issue as I have turned the amps off and use it as a pre/pro, so I wouldn't be drawing much current. If it is a concern then the shield might be almost as effective if it only goes go down to the top of the opening of the power supply board area.
 

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elvisizer

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If someone had a working example of an SR805 that'd be an interesting receiver to see reviewed. Onkyo was holding nothing back at that time. The SR805 was also made in Japan.
I'm currently considering upgrading my sr805 to one of these 8500's so there'd be one available here for testing if I do :)
 

Anterantz

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[QUOTE = "elvisizer, post: 915973, member: 3536"] Actualmente estoy considerando actualizar mi sr805 a uno de estos 8500, por lo que habría uno disponible aquí para probar si lo hago :)[/ QUOTE]
Hello sr8015 vs 8500h?
 

peng

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[QUOTE = "elvisizer, post: 915973, member: 3536"] Actualmente estoy considerando actualizar mi sr805 a uno de estos 8500, por lo que habría uno disponible aquí para probar si lo hago :)[/ QUOTE]
Hello sr8015 vs 8500h?

He clearly referred to the Onkyo SR805, that is TX-SR805. Based on soundandvision.com's measurements, that Onkyo is one of the most powerful AVR ever made. I am not sure how accurate and/or consistent the S&V measurements were. If I remember right, they did use an AP for their bench tests/measurements.

Depending on the measurement criteria picked, it would rank top, or 7th (again, based on S&V's). The other comparable powerful AVRs are the Denon AVR-4308, 5308, 5805, Pioneer VSX-94THX, Integra DTR-8.8 and the Yamaha RX-Z11.

The SR8015 and AVR-X8500H would probably fit within my top 15/16 list.
 

Anterantz

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He clearly referred to the Onkyo SR805, that is TX-SR805. Based on soundandvision.com's measurements, that Onkyo is one of the most powerful AVR ever made. I am not sure how accurate and/or consistent the S&V measurements were. If I remember right, they did use an AP for their bench tests/measurements.

Depending on the measurement criteria picked, it would rank top, or 7th (again, based on S&V's). The other comparable powerful AVRs are the Denon AVR-4308, 5308, 5805, Pioneer VSX-94THX, Integra DTR-8.8 and the Yamaha RX-Z11.

The SR8015 and AVR-X8500H would probably fit within my top 15/16 list.
I did not imagine that someone in 2021 would want to buy a discontinued avr!
 

peng

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yep exactly!
I ended up getting a bigger than expected bonus last week so I just got an avr-a110 today, the tx-sr805 will be going into retirement this weekend. it's had a good 14-ish year run :)

Wow, double congrats! Bonus before Christmas, very nice.
 

Rodion84

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Greetings from Russia, friends! I sold 4 AVC 110 receivers and as far as I remember, with complete silence, if you put your ear to the top panel where the transformer is located, you can not hear the light hum of this transformer itself. But recently I personally bought an AVC 110 to replace the X8500 and found that the transformer was buzzing a little. Please, owners, listen to whether your transformers on the avc110 are completely quiet?
 

ZinMe

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I wanted to post my experience with this receiver since buying it in Jan this year. It’s incredible- I don’t know if all Dolby atmos receivers are this good but the x-y-z dimensional sound is terrific. I don’t have height speakers other than ceiling speakers for the surround but it still manages to locate sounds all over the room. Sound is also great fed by digital coax from bluesound to the Denon’s DAC and pure direct/ direct stereo music Quite an upgrade from my Pioneer SC-37 as you can imagine.
 

jbattman1016

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I wanted to post my experience with this receiver since buying it in Jan this year. It’s incredible- I don’t know if all Dolby atmos receivers are this good but the x-y-z dimensional sound is terrific. I don’t have height speakers other than ceiling speakers for the surround but it still manages to locate sounds all over the room. Sound is also great fed by digital coax from bluesound to the Denon’s DAC and pure direct/ direct stereo music Quite an upgrade from my Pioneer SC-37 as you can imagine.
I upgraded from an sc-05, very nice sound indeed. Are you using Pure Direct Mode all the time or only for 2 Channel sources?

I'm always on Pure Direct with the RSLs 5 Series, seems happiest.
 

Sal1950

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Denon’s DAC and pure direct/ direct stereo music Quite an upgrade from my Pioneer SC-37 as you can imagine.
I'm always on Pure Direct with the RSLs 5 Series, seems happiest.
You gentleman are aware that engaging the Pure Direct mode disables all Audyssey room correction?
 

tparm

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You gentleman are aware that engaging the Pure Direct mode disables all Audyssey room correction?
And all bass control. But I agree, when I had my Denons I always played 2CH in Pure Direct with mains set to large and through an external DAC. Sounded better than the source, the source digital direct to AVR and way better then 2CH with Audyssey engaged.
 

amper42

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I have to agree. When I first setup my Revel F328Be with Audyssey I thought it sounded OK - but once I moved them to the RME ADI-2 FS DAC with the Purifi amp they sounded so much cleaner and warmer. Audyssey does it's best to flatten the well designed Revel "downward sloping" sound curve. Which removes much of the Revel signature sound while raising the highs approx. 3dB. And if you turn on "Dynamic EQ" it pollutes the bass portion of the curve even further. It's not hard for Audyssey to completely annihilate the natural Revel curve. This turns the F328Be into just another loudspeaker attempting to have a flat FR via Audyssey - instead of the beautiful sounding original F328Be curve. You can turn Audyssey off for L/R or tell it to only impact the FR below 300Hz but the AVR just can't compete sonically with the ADI-2 FS DAC for stereo.

I use to think my ideal speaker was totally flat but after owning the Revel F328Be and even the modest Revel M105 I found Revel speakers sound so much better without Audyssey mucking around in their frequency response. Getting rid of the AVR processing and moving to the RME ADI-2 FS lets them sing while maintaining their well designed curve. I still use the Denon AVR for movies... but for all my music listening the Denon power switch stays off.
 

peng

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I have to agree. When I first setup my Revel F328Be with Audyssey I thought it sounded OK - but once I moved them to the RME ADI-2 FS DAC with the Purifi amp they sounded so much cleaner and warmer. Audyssey does it's best to flatten the well designed Revel "downward sloping" sound curve. Which removes much of the Revel signature sound while raising the highs approx. 3dB. And if you turn on "Dynamic EQ" it pollutes the bass portion of the curve even further. It's not hard for Audyssey to completely annihilate the natural Revel curve. This turns the F328Be into just another loudspeaker attempting to have a flat FR via Audyssey - instead of the beautiful sounding original F328Be curve. You can turn Audyssey off for L/R or tell it to only impact the FR below 300Hz but the AVR just can't compete sonically with the ADI-2 FS DAC for stereo.

I use to think my ideal speaker was totally flat but after owning the Revel F328Be and even the modest Revel M105 I found Revel speakers sound so much better without Audyssey mucking around in their frequency response. Getting rid of the AVR processing and moving to the RME ADI-2 FS lets them sing while maintaining their well designed curve. I still use the Denon AVR for movies... but for all my music listening the Denon power switch stays off.

Interesting, but I am not sure if I would say I agree, disagree, or to some degree either way. When we are talking about things like "signature sound, signature curve" etc., I think it will become a matter of personal taste. I bet if you ask Revel's design engineers they will tell you in general they would in fact target a flat curve based on FR in an anechoic chamber. There are obviously practical aspects such as the speaker's off axis performance, the importance of that has been discussed to the nth degree by Dr. Toole and other audio experts, because in general speakers that exhibit good off axis performance/response (such as the BMRs, KEF R and Reference series, and of course most Revel speakers especially the Salon 2), tend to do well in more rooms, whereas speakers with poor off axis performance, such as some B&M diamonds, would have performance that may depend more on the room.

The thing is, a live orchestra playing in a concert hall size anechoic chamber would theoretically have a flat curve (if we consider the orchestra in the particular room as the reference). You can pick your seat in a concert hall but you can't really EQ the live orchestra, so imo, all Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov etc., should aim to "correct" is the room only, though if you don't limit the EQ'ed range to below your room transition point frequency it would naturally try to EQ your speaker's in-room response as well. Some may like the effects of EQ full range, and some won't, it boils down to the listener's personal liking. For me, I would try many different way and then settle on the one that I feel closest to what I experienced in "live" venues, bottom line is, ymmv..

For well measured amps, even some of Denon's AVR amps, if compared to the best measured power amps such as Purifi's and Benchmark's, I believe they would likely sound not exactly the same, but inaudibly different in tightly controlled DBT sessions. In my own subjective, under bias experience, I do feel the Purifi amp sounded better, but its not night and day kind of difference to me, and it also seems to depend a lot on the contents. To me, this is understandable, and is therefore expected (by me). For example, music contents that have relatively high dynamics, a much more powerful amp would tend to sound better because it will more likely remain operating in its linear range at all times. That said, my mind obviously might have prepared me to expect and hear better sound quality simply because I already know a 10 dB higher dynamic peaks from one DSD file to another would mean all else being equal, the weaker AVR amp would sound a little more compressed if I listen at loud enough level, and may even allow me to hear distortions from the amp being driven pass its clipping point. If neither amp gets too close to their clipping point, then I believe all else being equal, despite the Purifi's superior specs and measurements, I may not be able to hear a difference in a controlled DBT. This is just my own belief and opinion, not facts.:) If I were to make statement of facts kind of comments I would have to back it up with verifiable (such as measurements, and/or findings of formal peer reviewed scientific studies etc.).
 
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RichB

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With regards to amplifiers, the effective load seen by the amp is related to the phase and impedance. The ""equivalent peak dissipation resistance" EPDR is gaining some traction to address the load.

From Stereophile:
The speaker's impedance (fig.1) drops to between 3 and 5 ohms between 17Hz and 600Hz, but as the electrical phase angle is generally low in this region, the Salon2 should not be hard for the partnering amplifier to drive.

Salon2Impedance.jpg

Taking phase into account the effective load is in the 2 Ohm range. Obviously the Salon2s are physically large but that is not the determining factor.

Here are the Stereophile measurements of the well regarded LS50 bookshelf speaker:
The solid trace in fig.1 shows how the Meta's impedance magnitude varies with frequency. Below 200Hz, it is almost identical to that of the 2012 LS50 (fig.2, solid trace), but at higher frequencies the impedance traces are quite different. The Meta remains closer to 4 ohms for longer in the midrange but has a considerably higher magnitude in the crossover region. The new speaker's electrical phase angle (fig.1, dashed trace) is occasionally high, and I used the formula in a 1994 JAES paper to calculate the "equivalent peak dissipation resistance" (EPDR, footnote 1). The LS50 Meta has minimum EPDRs of 1.66 ohms between 135Hz and 140Hz and 1.7 ohms between 660Hz and 725Hz, both regions where music can have high energy. The partnering amplifier needs to be comfortable driving 4 ohms.

1220KEF50fig01.jpg

I have done (not blinded) listening sessions comparing the Benchmark AHB2 to my Sunfire Cinema amp as well as the ATI AT522NC Hypex NCore amp. In both cases, the amps were level matched using a 4 DAC MiniDSP SHD that is DSPs were used to level match to .1 dB. An A/B switch was used for fast switching. I understand this proves nothing. However, I value all amplifier measurements, here and on other sites, but I think we need better measurements that address real-world loads. Before we decide that AVR amps are up to driving speakers like the LS50s based, we would need reactive load testing, and if not that, then at least measure them into 2 Ohm loads.

- Rich
 

peng

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With regards to amplifiers, the effective load seen by the amp is related to the phase and impedance. The ""equivalent peak dissipation resistance" EPDR is gaining some traction to address the load.

From Stereophile:


View attachment 158768

Taking phase into account the effective load is in the 2 Ohm range. Obviously the Salon2s are physically large but that is not the determining factor.

Here are the Stereophile measurements of the well regarded LS50 bookshelf speaker:


View attachment 158770

I have done (not blinded) listening sessions comparing the Benchmark AHB2 to my Sunfire Cinema amp as well as the ATI AT522NC Hypex NCore amp. In both cases, the amps were level matched using a 4 DAC MiniDSP SHD that is DSPs were used to level match to .1 dB. An A/B switch was used for fast switching. I understand this proves nothing. However, I value all amplifier measurements, here and on other sites, but I think we need better measurements that address real-world loads. Before we decide that AVR amps are up to driving speakers like the LS50s based, we would need reactive load testing, and if not that, then at least measure them into 2 Ohm loads.

- Rich

Agreed, I value all kinds of measurements too. That's the main reason I like this site. I would always ensure amps used will never clip under any conditions in fact I don't want my amp to even get close to the clipping point under the most demanding load condition, just power output in "watts" into x ohm does not tell the whole story.

As to phase angles, as we both know, it is a matter of considering the resulting heat dissipation and stability and such things are totally measurable. My Bryston amp's spec sheet even include heat dissipation figures under different load conditions, still for resistor loads but the effects if reactive loads are used, it can again, be calculated.
 
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RichB

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Agreed, I value all kinds of measurements too. That's the main reason I like this site. I would always ensure amps used will never clip under any conditions in fact I don't want my amp to even get close to the clipping point under the most demanding load condition, just power output in "watts" into x ohm does not tell the whole story.

As to phase angles, as we both know, it is a matter of heat dissipation and stability and such things are totally measurable. My Bryston amp's spec sheet even include heat dissipation figures under different load conditions.

Not just power, but linearity may be an issue as can be seen in the Stereophile simulated load which is not even close to the demands placed on the amplifier of a speaker like the LS50.

- Rich
 

peng

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Rich, you are touching on something that may be a little more complicated than just power (okay, and linearity if you wish:)). I never even like the term "power" to be used this way but I can understand why they (those in the audio world at the time)started off using the term from way back. As for the demands placed on the amplifier by such speaker, if you focus on the amp's current and voltage output capability as well as its ability to dissipate heat, the SPL requirement of the user based on listening habits, seating distance, and of course the speaker's specifications, then one can do some calculations to see if an amp is capable of driving the speaker specified (such as the LS50 meta in this discussion). One can see that even an AVR amp such as those in the AVR-X4700H can meet the demand of those speakers for a lot of their owners. After all, KEF recommended 40 to 100 W, obviously based on the specified nominal impedance of 8 ohms. Now I would recommend an amp rated for 100-200 W 4 ohm rated amp but that would be just my choice, not KEF's. JA is very knowledgeable, but he often like to emphasize impedance and phase angle when consider the so called "power/or current demand" on amplifiers, and not emphasizing enough about the probably more important aspects, that is the "demand" put on the speaker by the user. Not a big deal, just that I think both considerations are important.

For argument sake, based on 85 dB/2.83V/1m, an amp capable of 50 W into 4 ohms can get the listener more than 94 dB SPL (max. peak) from 8 feet, with one single speaker without room gain. KEF rated the speaker nominal impedance 8 ohms, with minimum dip to 3 ohms, not those much lower EPDR JA referred to.

In fact, ultimately, the demand put on the amplifier is determined not only by the speaker's electrical characteristics and maximum spl output, but also the user's requirement that is mostly dictated by his/her listening habits.

You can certainly drive them with a 200 W/400 W 8/4 ohm rated amp, but that doesn't mean the LS50 meta is all that demanding on amplifiers because while current hungry, that's in relative sense only but in absolutely sense, KEF's recommended 40 - 100 W seems reasonable as long as the amp is in fact so called 4 ohm rated.

As Doug Schneider, said in the SoundStagehifi review:


KEF’s spec of recommended amplification of 40-100Wpc seems on the mark, though I’d think more power would be better than less -- a sensitivity of 85dB is a bit on the low side. But this is a small two-way speaker -- while you could use an amp that delivers 100Wpc or more, you shouldn’t necessarily feed speakers all of its juice, for fear of damaging the speakers.

Back to JA's use of the EPDR, he noted: "EPDR is the resistive load that gives rise to the same peak dissipation in an amplifier's output devices as the loudspeaker".

So again, that's an equivalency based on heat dissipation the output devices could be subjected to, not the actual magnitude of the current though. The magnitude of current in amperes will still be calculated by I = V/|Z|, where |Z| is the absolute value, or simply, the magnitude of the impedance in ohms.
 
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