Denon AVR-X4700H is better than Arcam AVR20

[anish]

Long time Denon user, (despite the measurements and various advise on this forum) couldn't resist the deal for an openbox Arcam AVR20 for £2240 (new retails for £3199). First thing I noticed is 'transformer hum', may be not audible for average user but I certainly did (and family members once I explained what to listen). Did the unit SW update, which is painfully slower compared to any other devices I used that supports OTA update.

Once the basic speaker config is done (my speaker layout is 5.x.4 but only used native 5.1.2), tried music streaming using Tidal HiRes MQA files and was happy to see 192kz decode (in the web i/f). Music did sound good. However, its a pain to get the streaming app working - it takes forever to find the AVR and often doesn't! Same with the control app.

Now time for Dirac calibration, the fundamental reason for me wanting to (potentially) switch to another AVR is Dirac Live Bass Control and the promised use of full range speakers for bass distribution. FWIW. I am an experienced user with multiple subs, bass response optimised for 4 listening positions including sidewall seat using minidsp 2x4 with filters created by MSO (multi sub optimiser). I used a umik-1 microphone and did the 'wide imaging' calibration. AVR crashed halfway through but Dirac SW was happy to continue from where it was (a major issue with Audyssey MultiEQ app that it starts from beginning if interrupted). I was impressed with the Dirac app and how much info it presented during filter design (upmix mode). I had to use separate measurements from calibration positions using REW to visualise same for Denon or use ratbuddyssey by exporting measurements from audyssey MultiEQ app to see just FR. I didn't *hear* any difference between Dirac and Audyssey in my room, however, I only correct below the room schroeder frequency (speakers: Revel Performa3 floor standers and Center). I am not sure what Dirac offers in bass management that one couldn't do by a few measurements and phase align Mains + Sub (or subwoofer distance hack by listening if you can't measure Sub delay wrt Mains). Creating target curves is breeze in Dirac vs. the painstaking editing on MultiEQ app (I use offline search/replace of target curve as described in ratbuddyssey avsforum thread).

I am not an audioholic, so don't understand the word 'sounds musical' people vouch about. So for me, once calibrated, both Denon and Arcam in Stereo sounded fantastic in my room. For movies, both supports every format I can think off - including Auro3D I use for non-multichannel upmix. My experience with Denon was better watching 'Ford vs. Ferrari' in Atmos - could also be due to the 5.1.2 vs 5.1.4 config. (.1 is same in both case - XTZ 12.7 edge subs are driven via minidsp 2x4).

Summary: I can't justify 2x cost of Arcam at all. The unit is still buggy, Apps are temperamental in connecting to the device, native 7 channel amps vs. 9 in Denon, no multisub support - requires $499 paid full bass management option (minidsp 2x4 + umik-1 costs <$200 and more flexible), no front HDMI. Personally, I didn't like Dirac corrected sound either.

May I take the opportunity to thank Amir and the wonderful forum contributors.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for feedback and kind words. It is really hard to go wrong with Denon.

 

[adidas2205]

Long time Denon user, (despite the measurements and various advise on this forum) couldn't resist the deal for an openbox Arcam AVR20 for £2240 (new retails for £3199). First thing I noticed is 'transformer hum', may be not audible for average user but I certainly did (and family members once I explained what to listen). Did the unit SW update, which is painfully slower compared to any other devices I used that supports OTA update.

Once the basic speaker config is done (my speaker layout is 5.x.4 but only used native 5.1.2), tried music streaming using Tidal HiRes MQA files and was happy to see 192kz decode (in the web i/f). Music did sound good. However, its a pain to get the streaming app working - it takes forever to find the AVR and often doesn't! Same with the control app.

Now time for Dirac calibration, the fundamental reason for me wanting to (potentially) switch to another AVR is Dirac Live Bass Control and the promised use of full range speakers for bass distribution. FWIW. I am an experienced user with multiple subs, bass response optimised for 4 listening positions including sidewall seat using minidsp 2x4 with filters created by MSO (multi sub optimiser). I used a umik-1 microphone and did the 'wide imaging' calibration. AVR crashed halfway through but Dirac SW was happy to continue from where it was (a major issue with Audyssey MultiEQ app that it starts from beginning if interrupted). I was impressed with the Dirac app and how much info it presented during filter design (upmix mode). I had to use separate measurements from calibration positions using REW to visualise same for Denon or use ratbuddyssey by exporting measurements from audyssey MultiEQ app to see just FR. I didn't *hear* any difference between Dirac and Audyssey in my room, however, I only correct below the room schroeder frequency (speakers: Revel Performa3 floor standers and Center). I am not sure what Dirac offers in bass management that one couldn't do by a few measurements and phase align Mains + Sub (or subwoofer distance hack by listening if you can't measure Sub delay wrt Mains). Creating target curves is breeze in Dirac vs. the painstaking editing on MultiEQ app (I use offline search/replace of target curve as described in ratbuddyssey avsforum thread).

I am not an audioholic, so don't understand the word 'sounds musical' people vouch about. So for me, once calibrated, both Denon and Arcam in Stereo sounded fantastic in my room. For movies, both supports every format I can think off - including Auro3D I use for non-multichannel upmix. My experience with Denon was better watching 'Ford vs. Ferrari' in Atmos - could also be due to the 5.1.2 vs 5.1.4 config. (.1 is same in both case - XTZ 12.7 edge subs are driven via minidsp 2x4).

Summary: I can't justify 2x cost of Arcam at all. The unit is still buggy, Apps are temperamental in connecting to the device, native 7 channel amps vs. 9 in Denon, no multisub support - requires $499 paid full bass management option (minidsp 2x4 + umik-1 costs <$200 and more flexible), no front HDMI. Personally, I didn't like Dirac corrected sound either.

May I take the opportunity to thank Amir and the wonderful forum contributors.

Maybe you're right. But let me explain something. Yes, the ARKAM buzzes as soon as you buy it, and it goes away. It will take about 20 days of use. But why don't you say that DENON stinks, and it stinks really bad for 14 days for sure. ARKAM doesn't have that. And it will warm up with any use a little more than ARCAM since it is smaller in size. I didn't use room correction, but listened as is. And I connected it via BI-AMPING in the 5.1.4 system, which DENON can't do. I advise you to try connecting the front speakers via bi amping. Listen to your recordings and movies at a volume of about 60 on both receivers. And see how your subwoofer and center channel sounds. In my case, there is a difference. Connect HD STEREO or multi-channel music. The difference is big in favor of ARKAM. Try removing the corrections on both receivers. And try to compare them together. If you have them in the same room. And let the ARCHES warm up. And please share. And so we are all different, and we also like different things. But I often watch movies. I wanted to move to DENON, but it didn't work out. Yes, I forgot to say AIRPLAY 2 Internet radio and streaming really sounds better on DENON. I'll tell you a secret. Why DIRAC made the bass adjustment. Yes, that's why all these adjustments are only needed for the bass and they really spoil the good highs. And they spoil the way the acoustics should sound. And the adjustment is required more in the low frequencies. Therefore, it is better without adjustment. Or you need to be able to do it correctly by hand. Without touching the middle and high ones. This is for any sound correction firm.

 

[anish]

Maybe you're right. But let me explain something. Yes, the ARKAM buzzes as soon as you buy it, and it goes away. It will take about 20 days of use. But why don't you say that DENON stinks, and it stinks really bad for 14 days for sure. ARKAM doesn't have that. And it will warm up with any use a little more than ARCAM since it is smaller in size. I didn't use room correction, but listened as is. And I connected it via BI-AMPING in the 5.1.4 system, which DENON can't do. I advise you to try connecting the front speakers via bi amping. Listen to your recordings and movies at a volume of about 60 on both receivers. And see how your subwoofer and center channel sounds. In my case, there is a difference. Connect HD STEREO or multi-channel music. The difference is big in favor of ARKAM. Try removing the corrections on both receivers. And try to compare them together. If you have them in the same room. And let the ARCHES warm up. And please share. And so we are all different, and we also like different things. But I often watch movies. I wanted to move to DENON, but it didn't work out. Yes, I forgot to say AIRPLAY 2 Internet radio and streaming really sounds better on DENON. I'll tell you a secret. Why DIRAC made the bass adjustment. Yes, that's why all these adjustments are only needed for the bass and they really spoil the good highs. And they spoil the way the acoustics should sound. And the adjustment is required more in the low frequencies. Therefore, it is better without adjustment. Or you need to be able to do it correctly by hand. Without touching the middle and high ones. This is for any sound correction firm.

Value your opinion and feedback. I am new to ARCAM, so admit there is some learning curve to get used to. My mains doesn't support biamp (Rvel Performa3 F206). AVR correction is limited to 300Hz. There is a 'bypass mode' in both that supports Mains as large without any correction for comparison. Attached is Mains (L+R) bass response - crossed over at 80Hz (Harman HC applied , 1/24 smoothing). Anyways, I have nothing against ARCAM, bought it with best of intentions - just sharing the fact it didn't feel twice as good for the money (even more if I were to add 2 channel amp for rear height/atmos).

 

[adidas2205]

Value your opinion and feedback. I am new to ARCAM, so admit there is some learning curve to get used to. My mains doesn't support biamp (Rvel Performa3 F206). AVR correction is limited to 300Hz. There is a 'bypass mode' in both that supports Mains as large without any correction for comparison. Attached is Mains (L+R) bass response - crossed over at 80Hz (Harman HC applied , 1/24 smoothing). Anyways, I have nothing against ARCAM, bought it with best of intentions - just sharing the fact it didn't feel twice as good for the money (even more if I were to add 2 channel amp for rear height/atmos).

View attachment 121785

I don't want to argue with you and prove something. But let's do it this way. There are pros and cons to any product. Tell me the advantages of ARCAM compared to DENON. And then I will believe that you are not an interested person. Moreover, as far as I understand, you have already bought ARCAM. And so......

 

[adidas2205]

I've been testing DENON for 25 days and it's still standing next to me in the room. So warm up ARCAM and tell us all its pros and cons in the menu, settings, and sound. I understand it's too early for you to draw conclusions. It takes time to warm up and test....

 

[peng]

Value your opinion and feedback. I am new to ARCAM, so admit there is some learning curve to get used to. My mains doesn't support biamp (Rvel Performa3 F206). AVR correction is limited to 300Hz. There is a 'bypass mode' in both that supports Mains as large without any correction for comparison. Attached is Mains (L+R) bass response - crossed over at 80Hz (Harman HC applied , 1/24 smoothing). Anyways, I have nothing against ARCAM, bought it with best of intentions - just sharing the fact it didn't feel twice as good for the money (even more if I were to add 2 channel amp for rear height/atmos).

View attachment 121785

That's a nice curve assuming it took just one Audyssey run attempt and smoothing is no more than 1/12. If you use the App, then you should be able to use Ratbuddyssey to customize the low end to your liking, unless you like it the way it is already. Trying to draw using just the App may work if you have a year or more to get it done.

As to sound quality in pure direct mode with no dsp, my experience is quite different than adidas, I found the AVR as good as my best separate systems and I absolutely don't believe any Arcam AVR can "sound better" than any of my separates. Admittedly the only Arcam I have auditioned was the AVR300 that sounded very sweet, but I am the type who would make my purchase based on specs and measurements, not ears and brains. Ears and brains are highly subjective, not reliable in most real world situations, and that's according to experts. When I first get into this hobby I did pay attention to specs but not measurements as there were hardly any in those early years. That's one reason why accumulated so many electronics and speakers, but then I evolved and became a little more knowledgeable eventually. Now I will continue to add, but not for "sound quality" any more. It is one thing if you still have the Arcam, otherwise I wouldn't look back, just enjoy the music/movies and convince yourself the Denon sounds just as good.

 

[peng]

I don't want to argue with you and prove something. But let's do it this way. There are pros and cons to any product. Tell me the advantages of ARCAM compared to DENON. And then I will believe that you are not an interested person. Moreover, as far as I understand, you have already bought ARCAM. And so......

As I said before, one cannot argue on subjective matters, but base on the objective measurements I can see the Arcam 390 has a very nice analog section and consider it a big "Pro". So if I own one, I would use my external DACs and the analog input of the Arcam for music listening.

 

[adidas2205]

That's a nice curve assuming it took just one Audyssey run attempt and smoothing is no more than 1/12. If you use the App, then you should be able to use Ratbuddyssey to customize the low end to your liking, unless you like it the way it is already. Trying to draw using just the App may work if you have a year or more to get it done.

As to sound quality in pure direct mode with no dsp, my experience is quite different than adidas, I found the AVR as good as my best separate systems and I absolutely don't believe any Arcam AVR can "sound better" than any of my separates. Admittedly the only Arcam I have auditioned was the AVR300 that sounded very sweet, but I am the type who would make my purchase based on specs and measurements, not ears and brains. Ears and brains are highly subjective, not reliable in most real world situations, and that's according to experts. When I first get into this hobby I did pay attention to specs but not measurements as there were hardly any in those early years. That's one reason why accumulated so many electronics and speakers, but then I evolved and became a little more knowledgeable eventually. Now I will continue to add, but not for "sound quality" any more. It is one thing if you still have the Arcam, otherwise I wouldn't look back, just enjoy the music/movies and convince yourself the Denon sounds just as good.

Let's get to the point. Do you have an ARCAM AVR20 at home right now?

 

[anish]

That's a nice curve assuming it took just one Audyssey run attempt and smoothing is no more than 1/12. If you use the App, then you should be able to use Ratbuddyssey to customize the low end to your liking, unless you like it the way it is already. Trying to draw using just the App may work if you have a year or more to get it done.

As to sound quality in pure direct mode with no dsp, my experience is quite different than adidas, I found the AVR as good as my best separate systems and I absolutely don't below any Arcam AVR can "sound better" than any of my separates. Admittedly the only Arcam I have auditioned was the AVR300 that sounded very sweet, but I am the type who would make my purchase based on specs and measurements, not ears and brains. Ears and brains are highly subjective, not reliable in most real world situations, and that's according to experts. When I first get into this hobby I did pay attention to specs but not measurements as there were hardly any in those early years. That's one reason why accumulated so many electronics and speakers, but then I evolved and became a little more knowledgeable eventually. Now I will continue to add, but not for "sound quality" any more. It is one thing if you still have the Arcam, otherwise I wouldn't look back, just enjoy the music/movies and convince yourself the Denon sounds just as good.

That response is 1/24 smoothing (I have attached an unsmoothed screenshot below). I am using the Harman curve as mentioned in the Ratbuddyssey thread (another preset with B&K curve as well). i.e. search and replace target curve than editing in the app. It is much easier on Dirac to set target curve. I follow all the advise I can on getting the bass right - speakers/subwoofers placement, room treatment* and then DSP corrections. No bass correction required by AVR, see the second screenshot. There are still some nulls/cancellations I need to work on - but they are not audible I guess.

I am well aware of 'placebo effect' of new gear when we pay attention, so always use family members for subjective testing - i.e. they just tell me 'x' is better, same or worse than 'y' - they have no knowledge about AVRs or Room EQ differences (just appreciates the music & movies/tele). I am doing more listening now - long weekend.

* One thing I learned is to look at speakers as pair (L+R) and then their interaction with Centre. I had big cancellations in the 100 -150 frequency, most of it was reflections cancelling (individually each speakers looked perfect). I also measure all 4 listening positions to make sure any changes I make don't spoil it for other seats (no mother in law seat )

 

[adidas2205]

I now have an ARCAM AVR10 and DENON 3700 at home and I'm testing them. And there is a huge experience of their pros and cons. Both in the sound and in the menu and usability. And I ask you to share this experience with us. I understood from your words that you have an ARCAM AVR20 at home. Share your experience....Or are you lying? Believe me, these two devices AVR20 and 4700 have pros and cons. And tell the experience not on the charts. We've already seen the charts.... experience.... in the menu? In the image (and it is very different not in favor of DENON), in the settings menu?

 

[adidas2205]

Remove the charts. Tell us your feelings. Use experience. Or are you a robot? A bot? Forget about adjustments good acoustics sound so good. Tell us about the menu which is more convenient? Is there no difference in the image (I don't believe) sound without adjustments? Tell us how the subwoofer and center channel sound in a home theater system compared to the 4700 and AVR20. Tell us..... we are waiting.....

 

[anish]

I understood from your words that you have an ARCAM AVR20 at home. Share your experience....Or are you lying?

I didn't expect it to be a heated discussion Attached is the proof that my posts are based on real experience with AVR20. I have no intention to upset any forum members or get into an argument. I have already shared my opinion, you can decide what sounds best for you.

 

[Rottmannash]

This thread is getting strange...

 

[adidas2205]

I didn't expect it to be a heated discussion Attached is the proof that my posts are based on real experience with AVR20. I have no intention to upset any forum members or get into an argument. I have already shared my opinion, you can decide what sounds best for you.
View attachment 121819

Well, I believe you, but throw off a photo of two receivers! 4700 and AVR20 together. Pliz. I believe you personally. And test it. Believe me, there is a difference in the image and in the sound and in the setting. And yes, ARCAM is buggy a little more often. But when you get to know him, you'll forgive him.

 

[anish]

Well, I believe you, but throw off a photo of two receivers! 4700 and AVR20 together. Pliz. I believe you personally. And test it. Believe me, there is a difference in the image and in the sound and in the setting. And yes, ARCAM is buggy a little more often. But when you get to know him, you'll forgive him.[/QUOTE

I don't know where we are going with this

 

[Chrispy]

You two could just have two different experiences. They're likely more similar than different, too. Subjective experience is best left just at that often....hard to compare over the internet let alone validate somehow.

 

[adidas2205]

 

[adidas2205]

I didn't expect it to be a heated discussion Attached is the proof that my posts are based on real experience with AVR20. I have no intention to upset any forum members or get into an argument. I have already shared my opinion, you can decide what sounds best for you.

Be sure to install the latest firmware 1.46 let it warm up(it doesn't stink) and tell us about your experience.
View attachment 121819

 

[abdo123]

Do you have a good guide on how to phase align mains and subs?

I’ve been looking for that for quite sometime, preferably including multiple subs too!