Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[peng]

And the top circuit Video/DSP board, above the Audio DAC circuit board from the pic in the above post ...

Again above ^ we see the three BB DACs for the Zone 2 and 3 audio, plus Network, and a fourth DAC (from AKM) with 16 pins ... what for, the headphones?

From this article (use your translator...Polish > English) ... ou Français si vous préférez ...
-> https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3035-denon-avr-x4500h

The 4th if you referred to the AK5358ET, that is the ADC chip.

 

[enormity32]

All I can say is that the longer Denon goes without it's promised response, the bigger the problem becomes. This is a PR nightmare that grows with each day. A company the size of Sound United has to know how badly this reflects on them. You'd think that we'd have a response by now if they disagreed with the findings or had a simple fix like a firmware update. I'm guessing they have no easy fix at this point and that the product is a disaster. I have a 30.2 pound un-opened paperweight sitting on my counter that will be returned if I don't hear something soon, and if that happens I can guarantee I'll never buy another Denon product. 42 different logo's on the outside of the box means nothing to me. I want a product that's better than the specs of the previous generation receiver that was a step below it. This is a step backwards. Your move, Denon!

 

[John Galt]

All I can say is that the longer Denon goes without it's promised response, the bigger the problem becomes. This is a PR nightmare that grows with each day. A company the size of Sound United has to know how badly this reflects on them. You'd think that we'd have a response by now if they disagreed with the findings or had a simple fix like a firmware update. I'm guessing they have no easy fix at this point and that the product is a disaster. I have a 30.2 pound un-opened paperweight sitting on my counter that will be returned if I don't hear something soon, and if that happens I can guarantee I'll never buy another Denon product. 42 different logo's on the outside of the box means nothing to me. I want a product that's better than the specs of the previous generation receiver that was a step below it. This is a step backwards. Your move, Denon!

It’s embarrassing. They know how their equipment will be tested by consumer advocates, yet still dropped the ball. They deserve every lost sale.

 

[BsdKurt]

I don’t revel in these disappointing measurements. I hope that Denon chooses to respond with either a confirmation of @amirm measurements or opens a dialog to resolve any differences they may have with them.

Saying nothing at all would be the worst outcome for consumers that want quality and would likely result in serous loss of trust in their brand. In my opinion, saying nothing at all is equivalent to saying not only are the measurements correct, but that they don’t care to improve.

Denon, I’m rooting for you do something to restore confidence that you hear us, care about quality and are willing to have an open dialog to deal with these results. I expect CD quality or better from all sources and outputs in 2020, can you deliver that?

 

[North_Sky]

The 4th if you referred to the AK5358ET, that is the ADC chip.

Thank you Peng, that's what I thought after more investigation (after posting it).

 

[John Galt]

I don’t revel in these disappointing measurements. I hope that Denon chooses to respond with either a confirmation of @amirm measurements or opens a dialog to resolve any differences they may have with them.

Saying nothing at all would be the worst outcome for consumers that want quality and would likely result in serous loss of trust in their brand. In my opinion, saying nothing at all is equivalent to saying not only are the measurements correct, but that they don’t care to improve.

Denon, I’m rooting for you do something to restore confidence that you hear us, care about quality and are willing to have an open dialog to deal with these results. I expect CD quality or better from all sources and outputs in 2020, can you deliver that?

I have no desire to give any company slack when it comes to performance and value. They can either buck up or be devoured by a competitor.

I’m long past giving a pass to companies based on their printed name. It means nothing these days.

 

[amirm]

I hope that Denon chooses to respond with either a confirmation of @amirm measurements or opens a dialog to resolve any differences they may have with them.

I have been checking in my inbox, junk box, etc. every day hoping to see a response from them but nothing has come back. They have not even acknowledged the receipt of my message. Seeing how Japan is head of us by almost a day, if we don't hear anything by tomorrow the odds of them responding shrinks to near zero.

 

[John Galt]

I have been checking in my inbox, junk box, etc. every day hoping to see a response from them but nothing has come back. They have not even acknowledged the receipt of my message. Seeing how Japan is head of us by almost a day, if we don't hear anything by tomorrow the odds of them responding shrinks to near zero.

They know that they dropped the ball and wasted a HUGE sales opportunity. What an embarrassment.

I was interested in an upgrade and they lost the sale over tens of dollars in hardware, and a lack of passion in engineering, or more likely management.

 

[North_Sky]

X4700H (below)

X4500H (below)

 

[amirm]

I have been checking in my inbox, junk box, etc. every day hoping to see a response from them but nothing has come back. They have not even acknowledged the receipt of my message. Seeing how Japan is head of us by almost a day, if we don't hear anything by tomorrow the odds of them responding shrinks to near zero.

Scratch that! There is a new development!

 

[lashto]

It’s weird though. They do have a sound signature of “vivid and spacious” which is new.

I wish Denon USA would translate these interviews.
.....

Considering the latest developments, why do you think that we should trust/read a single word that Denon utters?! Here's where I stopped reading your translated interviews:

Comments about the X6500H sound improvement
Takahashi: ... The AVC-X8500H has a very high-performance DAC, but the AVC-X6500H was unable to use the same DAC in terms of cost.

IIRC, that "very high-performance" and oh-so-expensive DAC used by the Denon x8500 is AK4490. When x8500 was released (2018?) AK4490 was already an old chip (2010?) and far from AKM's topline. By 2020 standards the AK4490 is not even average. Also, it is so super-duper-expensive that the $99 JDS AtomDac uses it. But JDS delivers excellent quality even for their cheapest $99 DAC: it measures >10x better than any Denon/Marantz.
Schiit also uses AK4490 in their cheapest ~$100 DAC with good results.
And Denon? Denon still calls the x8500 a top-model in 2020 and wants $4000 for it!

And since the AKM4490 chip was so freaking expensive (costs ~$3 nowadays), Denon "had to" use AK4458 for the x6500 series. AK4458 was always a low budget chip (costs ~$1.5 nowadays) and in 2020 you can barely call it "meh". But Denon still sells the x6500 as a highend-model and wants >$2000 for it.

... all I have left is a bunch of WTFs ... anyone who wants to have those for only $500? I promise, they are "very high performance" WTFs and do sound amazing

 

[peng]

Considering the latest developments, why do you think that we should trust/read a single word that Denon utters?! Here's where I stopped reading your translated interviews:

IIRC, that "very high-performance" and oh-so-expensive DAC used by the Denon x8500 is AK4490. When x8500 was released (2018?) AK4490 was already an old chip (2010?) and far from AKM's topline. By 2020 standards the AK4490 is not even average. Also, it is so super-duper-expensive that the $99 JDS AtomDac uses it. But JDS delivers excellent quality even for their cheapest $99 DAC: it measures >10x better than any Denon/Marantz.
Schiit also uses AK4490 in their cheapest ~$100 DAC with good results.
And Denon? Denon still calls the x8500 a top-model in 2020 and wants $4000 for it!

And since the AKM4490 chip was so freaking expensive (costs ~$3 nowadays), Denon "had to" use AK4458 for the x6500 series. AK4458 was always a low budget chip (costs ~$1.5 nowadays) and in 2020 you can barely call it "meh". But Denon still sells the x6500 as a highend-model and wants >$2000 for it.

... all I have left is a bunch of WTFs ... anyone who wants to have those for only $500? I promise, they are "very high performance" WTFs and do sound amazing

Agreed, but to be fair, the AK4490 in the AVR-X8500H and AV8805 are 2 channel DACs, I think they have 8 pieces in it to cover all the channels including the sub channels. The AK4458 has 8 channels so only two are needed. The SR8012, for just a few hundred dollars less, also has the AK4458, same as the on in the SR5012/13/14 and the Denon AVR-X1600H.

So going by the DAC chip the X8500H was in fact treated as a real flagship class model. Yes it was an old chip but at launch time it was AKM's flagship DAC too.

What I find disappointing is the ADC, hard to believe Denon/Marantz would hang on to that DAC that offers 92 dB SINAD, hardly acceptable. Yamaha's AK5386's not much matter but 96 dB SINAD is probably good enough.

Now, again to be fair, while all these choices of the older/lesser DAC chips look bad when compared to many <$200 external DACs, the AK4490 is comparable to Yamaha's flagship that uses the ES9026 Pro and is much better than many integrated amps such as Yamaha's A-S801.

 

[Vindermere]

I find denon not very transparent because when reading this topic very interesting, it appears that each model is tweaked differently

 

[peng]

I find denon not very transparent because when reading this topic very interesting, it appears that each model is tweaked differently

Keep in mind that in reality many of the stuff you read here are not all (some are, as always) facts, but speculation by members including me.. As far as I know, there have been very little info about those claimed different tweaks, parts used etc... confirmed by D+M/SU. This is a forum after all, not a customer support site, so you bound to get a lot of unconfirmed info, by nature..

 

[lashto]

Agreed, but to be fair, the AK4490 in the AVR-X8500H and AV8805 are 2 channel DACs, I think they have 8 pieces in it to cover all the channels including the sub channels. The AK4458 has 8 channels so only two are needed. The SR8012, for just a few hundred dollars less, also has the AK4458, same as the on in the SR5012/13/14 and the Denon AVR-X1600H.

So going by the DAC chip the X8500H was in fact treated as a real flagship class model. Yes it was an old chip but at launch time it was AKM's flagship DAC too.

What I find disappointing is the ADC, hard to believe Denon/Marantz would hang on to that DAC that offers 92 dB SINAD, hardly acceptable. Yamaha's AK5386's not much matter but 96 dB SINAD is probably good enough.

Now, again to be fair, while all these choices of the older/lesser DAC chips look bad when compared to many <$200 external DACs, the AK4490 is comparable to Yamaha's flagship that uses the ES9026 Pro and is much better than many integrated amps such as Yamaha's A-S801.

Yes it sounds slightly more fair the way you put it. But what did Denon ever do to deserve that kind of fair treatment?
Let's say that in 2018 the $4000 x8500 had some traces of "fair". But they still trumpet it as topmodel in 2020 and want ~the same $4000. Does anyone see any "fair" there?

AK4497 was the top AKM chip in 2018 and IIRC even the AK4499 was already announced/sampled. AK4490 was already in the old and (relatively) cheap DACs category. (not saying that it was/is a bad chip, just neither top quality nor top expensive as Denon pretends)

And the comparison with Yamaha is not that fair, I'd say it only seems fair at first sight. I mostly read it as "this Denon crap is same as good as that other Yamaha crap". Not particularly useful or relevant

Many thanks for that ADC info, I did not know those were so low quality. Looks like the good news about Denon never cease coming ...

 

[davidc]

Denon and every audio brand out there massage the numbers. In real world listening of a movie or television soundtrack these measurements will never be heard. Yes audiophile equipment for two channel listening is a different beast and I understand there you would hear an audible difference with audiophile grade speakers. But these mass produced AVR'S are not in that class
It is silly to expect them to have the same performance measurements at a tenth of the cost.

Ignorant statement. I'd bet that 99% of people who buy this AVR, that if they do listen to 2ch stereo, will do it with the AVR also. And "mass-produced"? Of course, just like almost every amp, preamp, tuner, and receiver in the last 40 yrs, including Denon. So why can't it perform as good as all those in the past?

 

[peng]

Yes it sounds slightly more fair the way you put it. But what did Denon ever do to deserve that kind of fair treatment?
Let's say that in 2018 the $4000 x8500 had some traces of "fair". But they still trumpet it as topmodel in 2020 and want ~the same $4000. Does anyone see any "fair" there?

AK4497 was the top AKM chip in 2018 and IIRC even the AK4499 was already announced/sampled. AK4490 was already in the old and (relatively) cheap DACs category. (not saying that it was/is a bad chip, just neither top quality nor top expensive as Denon pretends)

And the comparison with Yamaha is not that fair, I'd say it only seems fair at first sight. I mostly read it as "this Denon crap is same as good as that other Yamaha crap". Not particularly useful or relevant

Many thanks for that ADC info, I did not know those were so low quality. Looks like the good news about Denon never cease coming ...

I don't disagree, my key point about their choice of DAC, and other chips too actually is that they all behave less than good, not that they are good relative to others, hope I made that clear as it sounds clumsy to me lol..

You might remember I posted a few times about the volume control chip (credit to Dr. Rich who wrote extensively about the importance of that chip), on that one Denon is miles ahead because the NJU72343 is only a few years old and has half the distortions of those used in the NAD, Onkyo and Yamaha's. Did you know that the one used in the A-S801 was already discontinued even at launch time? So I think using Yamaha as an example is actually quite fair, again relatively speaking. And again, I am agreeing with your point, my counter point is simply Denon is not the only one. So they all should do better, and hopefully won't start racing to the bottom.

 

[davidc]

Again, it is your opinion that the measurements show this product to be trash. I didn't call it such. I objected to it going backwards in performance relative to their own product.

As for shaming, of course. I need to get them to take action because clearly on their own, they have people like you praising them no matter how they execute. Audio product development is about fidelity. Company screams about this in its advertising:

View attachment 69793

"Superb audio fidelity." The product can't even resolve 16 bit audio correctly. How is it handling high-res audio with superb fidelity? Isn't too much noise lack of fidelity?

They finish with this:

View attachment 69794

Where is evidence of "Amazing Sound?" THe current management is helping destroy that 110 year old reputation of building superior audio products compared to low-end tier.

Remember, I am not even holding them up to state of the art products. They have no prayer of getting there even under the best of circumstances. SINAD for those is exceeding 122 dB. In some cases even my analyzer is not good enough to measure them!

For AVR, you can get a sound card and measure and find the issues I discovered. It is that bad of performance.

You seem to put no value on excellence in engineering, execution and design. As long as it has logos coming out of your ear, you seem to be happy. You know, like the dumb mass market.

We are different here. We are informed. We know how to go past empty marketing claims like what I have quoted and get to the truth. That truth hurts and we now have you crying on our shoulders as if we care. Come back when you have some data to add to the conversations. That is what rules here: reliable data.

Here here!

 

[A800]

DeNON

 

[peng]

So why can't it perform as good as all those in the past?

I think that could be a myth, depending what compares to what. For example, I have owned the AVR-3805, 4308, 1912, 1710, X3500H and now the X4400H, also had the Marantz AV7005, AV8801. So for me "all those in the past" would include 6 of the models I mentioned and the "present" is the X4400H. In that case, I would say my "present" AVR perform not only as good, but actually better than those in the past based on available bench test measurements done by AH, S&V, HTHF, HCC, AVtech and of course ASR. That is, not based on poor ears/brains, but specs and measurements.

Again, not trying to contradict your point at all, just saying it depends..